Is this legal?

Maz

Hi all, I could really do with your help as I'm in an emotional situation with my daughter.

She's rented houses for about 6-7 years now, and not one can she provide a reference for because of unpaid bills and rent. One place the electricity and gas people actually broke into the house and installed meters because of unpaid bills, and the last place she did a runner because of approximately 9 months of unpaid rent and bills.

She hasn't worked in years, two children to look after, and hasn't sorted her finances/benefits out so that she can manage her money (this hasn't been without any help but she just doesn't want to bother). Despite this, at times she's had a lot of money flying around and I'm not entirely sure where it's come from.

So rather a complicated situation, and one that has crea
ted a lot of distance in the family because of the emotive nature of the situation.

Anyway, currently she's living in a van on top of a hill and has been looking for a place to rent for almost two months after running away from the previous situation. They have a cooker and heating but have to travel for the loo and other facilities, so not entirely ideal.

Sorry for the rambling explanation but it's important that there's some background context to this..!

Now, they have seen a couple of places and she's recently asked me whether she can say that she has been renting from me (she hasn't specified since when) which obviously isnt true. She also wants to use her friend's address as a contact point, which I'm not sure that I understand the reasoning of...?

We don't have the same surnames so I can only assume that this implies that she would like to use me as an independent referee.

I'm not comfortable with lying to these people and also don't know what repercussions this could have for me. It seems very much like fraud but I'm unsure how serious it would be, and I'm finding it quite hard to be objective because after all she is my daughter. I really need some advice!!!

Thank you for reading my essay (eek!) and any advice, legal or otherwise would be very much appreciated. :beer:

thriftybabe

OMG first of all I feel for you. It is a horrible position to be put in. If, as you say, your daughter has been doing this for 6-7 years and is not good with money and paying bills do you think it will be any different this time? Is it always private Landlords whom she rents from? Can she not get on social housing list?

Maz

It's always private landlords as she wants to live in particular types of houses and areas. I don't know anything about the ins and outs of renting property! I imagine for these reasons, social housing has never come into the equation and no, I don't think it will be any different this time.

paintpot

If your daughter went through a letting agent then they would more than likely credit check/reference her. I don't know precisely how the systems work but if there are inaccuracies in terms of addresses she was registered with it would throw up a fraud score. It depends how traceable she has become to the addresses she has lived at previously but I would suggest very traceable. Also, the credit checks are also likely to throw up poor credit scores as I suspect she has CCJs as a result on non payment of bills. She probably wants to use the friends address as another previous address and you as a previous address and current landlord.

If she were to go with a private landlord with no agency involvement then it's pot luck as to how thorough they are with checking. Some will do the same sorts of checks as an agent others don't both so much.

From a moral standpoint, I think you should refuse your daughters request to effectively lie by giving her a false reference. She needs to learn that her behaviour is wrong and face the consequences of her actions. However, I appreciate that this is easier said than done. Some landlords, often ask for a guarantor where there is poor credit history. You can guess who she will ask to be the guarantor - YOU. My advice would be, do not do it! No No No!!!

You clearly do not approve of her previous behaviour. I would suggest you assist her if possible in fronting up to her previous debts and problems. The chances are, whereever she does eventually go the debt collectors will find her. Does she want to spend the rest of her life running away?

Furthermore, I am a landlord and had I had a tenant like your daughter who owed me money I would be tracing them. The legalities of providing an inaccurrate reference could come back to haunt you but probably unlikely. Morally, only you can decide. However, as a landlord, I would not want to be your daughter's landlord for all the tea in china.

I hope this has helped.

Maz

Paintpot, thanks for your input.

Her father (who I don't have any contact with) has offered to stand as guarantor and also pay for three months rent upfront. I believe the house is being let through an agency.

As far as I understand it, she wants to give my name as current landlady but at her friends' address, not my home address. I don't understand the reasons for this? As I say, I have no knowledge of the way the letting industry works so have no idea what any possible future come back for me there would be on this and would appreciate some guidance. Maybe there is some kind hearted letting agent reading this who would offer advice?

paintpot

Ok so she is using an Agent.

The way it works (if they are a reputable agent and use industry practices) is that they will probably ask your daugther to complete an application form which will ask for her previous addresses for X number of years, previpus jobs, whether she is in receipt of benefits, NI number etc and also whether she has any previous credit problems/CCJS.

Your daughter needs to account for where she has been living and obviously does not want to give her previous real addresses because history will be attached to it and they will also ask for a reference from her real previous landlord. Thus she is trying to circumnavigate the system.

However, the agent will input the info she has provided into the credit system and it will do a trace of the info they have. Thus, if she was registered to other addresses that differ from the info she has given them e.g she could be traced via CCJs, electoral roll, council tax, then it will throw up a fraud score i.e. that the info she has provided does not match what they have so "computer says no!". It will also show whether the info she has provided about her credit history is correct.

Like I say, I don't precisely know how it done but that's the nuts and bolts of it all.

In this instance the landlord should and could decline to rent to her due to the mismatching of information in which case she could waste a fee.

They are also lilkely to ask for a written or verbal reference from the previous landlord and that is going to be YOU! So they will ask (or this is the usual) how long did she live there for, how much was her rent, did she pay it on time/any arrears and did she look after the property. You are going to have to blatantly lie if they ask this. So, if it proveable that you have lied then technically, a landlord could probably sue you for providing a false reference. The reality of them doing so may be different.

In terms of the father, you may not care, but basically, if your daughter defaults on the rent, causes damage, breaches the tenancy, then a properly executed guarantor document will make him liable for everything. It is also usual for an agent to credit check and reference the guarantor and also stipulate that they are a homeowner so that if they aren't good for the money the landlord can obtain a charge against their home and this could also leave the father with a CCJ if they don't pay up if your daughter doesn't either.

It's a risky strategy for both you and the father to get involved for the reasons above.

ETA I also feel strongly that you should not lie for your daughter from a moral standpoint.

Maz wrote: »

Paintpot, thanks for your input.

Her father (who I don't have any contact with) has offered to stand as guarantor and also pay for three months rent upfront. I believe the house is being let through an agency.

As far as I understand it, she wants to give my name as current landlady but at her friends' address, not my home address. I don't understand the reasons for this? As I say, I have no knowledge of the way the letting industry works so have no idea what any possible future come back for me there would be on this and would appreciate some guidance. Maybe there is some kind hearted letting agent reading this who would offer advice?

Maz

Paintpot, thanks for your clarification, I understand what you're saying.

Apparently, her father is on the brink of losing his business and home due to the recession. Obviously for reasons stated, I am unaware of his exact financial situation, except that I know he is going bust.So, it's pretty dire!

I tend to think that, that particular door has been closed to her and she is now she is looking for other safety nets, namely, me. If it means jepoardising myself, then I'm not going to do it. To be honest, I'm rather upset that she's asked me! There is the moral issue as well and I'm not comfortable with the whole thing.

poppysarah

She's being naughty asking you to lie for her.
Don't feel bad about saying no.

LydiaJ

Maz,

It sounds awful. I'm so sorry she's putting you in this horrible position.

She is clearly not going to face up to her problems as long as she can find someone who will rescue her. The best hope for her long term future is for her to discover that she has run out of people to rescue her, and that there is no alternative but to face up to stuff and start learning to be responsible.

Looking at it from all the different angles, I'd say...

1) Do what's morally right - keep telling her that you love her but refuse to lie for her.
2) Do what's fair to any potential landlord, who doesn't deserve a nightmare tenant - refuse to lie for her.
3) Don't endanger your own position, reputation, credit rating, freedom from criminal record etc - refuse to lie for her; tell her you love her but won't commit fraud to help her avoid the consequences of her actions.
4) Do the only thing that might give her a chance of realising she needs to change - refuse to lie for her, but say that if and when she's willing to face stuff, and to prove to you that she's really serious about sorting herself out, then you'll be there to help her with that.

Hmmm ... something of a pattern here, I think.

Good luck,
Lydia

paintpot

Maz

Don't be pressurised into doing something you will regret. Your daughter is an adult and needs to account for her previous actions.

She needs to be honest with LLs or Agents that she has stuffed up and tell them what she is doing, if anything, to put it right, or face the consequences. She will only get I would imagine the very low end of the private sector market anyway with her history unless someone falls for her fake stories. I don't mean to be harsh but that's the truth.

She has kids though so is she not eligible for social housing? It's not something I know much about and her history of not paying rent may have hindered her but it doesn't generally from what I read.

I wish you luck but you need to stick to your guns here and be strong.

Maz wrote: »

Paintpot, thanks for your clarification, I understand what you're saying.

Apparently, her father is on the brink of losing his business and home due to the recession. Obviously for reasons stated, I am unaware of his exact financial situation, except that I know he is going bust.So, it's pretty dire!

I tend to think that, that particular door has been closed to her and she is now she is looking for other safety nets, namely, me. If it means jepoardising myself, then I'm not going to do it. To be honest, I'm rather upset that she's asked me! There is the moral issue as well and I'm not comfortable with the whole thing.

Robert_Sterling_3

It is an awful position to be in.
There is no easy solution to your daughter's problems.
I think that you should not put yourself at risk by making untrue statements which could easily be found to be untrue. I wish I could say something more positive.