Is the recession really Brown's fault?

setmefree2

macaque wrote: »

Germany has its problems but not on our scale..

These are the figures for January Unemployment

January Unemployment

USA 7.6%
Germany 8.3%
France 7.6%
Spain 13.9%


The UK was 6.3%

I could not find a figure for Japan for January. It seemed to be 4.4% in December. However, Industrial output fell 9.6% in December in Japan.

setmefree2

Whilst I do accept that the Labour Government has made mistakes, I would be grateful if any poster could explain to me how Britain is supposed to decouple it's economy from the rest of the world?

As I understand it Britain's economy will only recover when America's does, no matter what Gordon Brown's government does. If anyone thinks differently I'd sure be interested.

macaque_2

setmefree2 wrote: »

I'm afraid I find your view of the UK economy typical of many on this board.These are the figures or 4th Quarter GDP:-

4th Quarter GDP

USA -3.8
Japan -2.5
Germany -2.2
France -1.8
Portugal -2.0
Finland -4.8%

The UK was -1.5

Britain's economic model is no worse than any other model, and ultimately may prove better. Look at Japan and Germany - it's not great to have an export driven saving based economy, it leads to many problems. You have to develop internal consumption.

Hopefully, it will prove to be that the UK econonmy is more resilient than the (largely) Tory media are suggesting.

I do apprecaite that the UK face massive difficulties. But they are the same difficulties everyone else faces.

To measure the health of an economy, you need to look at more than just GDP. A sizeable part of our GDP has been linked to public spending and rising private debt. This is just not sustainable. We have a huge and growing trade deficit. Again, this is not sustainable. We have a grossly overvalued housing stock. As this deflates, it will have a severe impact on the economy. Our economy has become far too dependant on financial services. As the government is forced to impose tougher controls, the financial services sector will shrink. When it comes to unemployment, we no longer know where we stand. The government have created a complex web of schemes and definitions to hide the true level of unemployment.

On the subject of gloom, I am more optimistic today than at any time time in the past 6 years. I am hopeful that the current difficulties will force a change in attitudes on government and the population. We have got to get back to an ethos of hard work and enterprise.

SGE1

ad9898 wrote: »

Christ, this thread asked if Brown is at fault for the current meltdown, the answer is an unaquivocal yes, but it's turned into a Scargill, lesbo hippy cheering thread.:D.

I find you more and more offensive by the day.

If the answer was an "unequivocal" yes (note spelling), I don't think there would be 10 pages of answers. Unfortunately for you, we're not at a stage yet where "what ad9898 says, goes". You'll have to work on your logic and IQ for many years until that's the case on these boards.

As for the idea that anyone who disagrees with you and supports the Government in any way is a "lesbo hippie" (note spelling again), please, get our of your shell. Have you left you home since 1969? Come to think of it, you probably haven't. That might explain some of your views.

SGE1

macaque wrote: »

BACKFRMTHEEDGE

To make such a comment, you must be working in the public sector. I don't feel calm at all. I have never seen things as bad as this. I know three companies on the verge of bancrupcy. Everyone is cutting staff and freezing spending. Companies like Pfizer and GSK are closing major facilities in the UK. The economic activity that survives is being heavily sponsored by the government. How long can that last and what will happen to interest rates the government's credit rating hits the buffers?

Oh come on! Of course mortgage holders complain when when interest rates go through the roof. Likewise, pensioners raise the alarm when their income dissapears due to low interest rates.

Unemployment is back to the level of 10 years ago. This takes no account of the hidden unemployed or the fact that the majority of the jobs created in recent years have been funded by the tax payer.


Germany has its problems but not on our scale.

Some banks are only surviving with massive injections of state aid. Unemployment is rising by 100,000 a month and accelerating. Companies are going bancrupt at a faster rate than 1991. This I'm afraid adds up to a shambles.

And over the past 10 years, this position has owed much to rising public sector debt, rising private debt and financial services and property. Where will we stand once all the bills have been paid?

New Labour have wrecked the economy, undermined freedom of speech and left the financial sector to turn into a glorified casino. That casino has lost everyone's money. Is it any suprise that people are angry.

You really don't get it do you. You're given facts, and then asked to look at things in perspective, to which you reply "I have never seen things as bad as this". With all due respect, the experience of 1 person don't trump statistical facts. Your tatty little personal examples show just how short-sighted you are.

And why when presented with statistical evidence, do you always resort to the idea that everything is "hidden"? I suppose it's a great means of ignoring real factual arguments, and obstinately sticking to your side of the story, however little sense it makes. And of course, how naive is the notion that statistics have only been manipulated since 1997?

On your comment about undermined freedom of speech, I can only laugh. Your persecution complex must run very high. I just hope nobody from anywhere in the world where freedom of speech is really an issue is ready thing.

And finally, you must be working in the private sector - the only reason as to why you know nothing about the public sector, and are able to maintain your delusional bitterness against others you perceive as better off than you. Having worked in both (and currently working in the private sector), and therefore being in a position to judge, I can firmly say, you are wrong. Get over it, and stop blaming the other side of the coin for everything. Your agenda is nauseating. If you showed perhaps a modicum of restraint, acknowledged people's arguments, and realised that things are not always black and white, people may start believing you.

macaque_2

SGE1 wrote: »

You really don't get it do you. You're given facts, and then asked to look at things in perspective, to which you reply "I have never seen things as bad as this". With all due respect, the experience of 1 person don't trump statistical facts. Your tatty little personal examples show just how short-sighted you are.

And why when presented with statistical evidence, do you always resort to the idea that everything is "hidden"? I suppose it's a great means of ignoring real factual arguments, and obstinately sticking to your side of the story, however little sense it makes. And of course, how naive is the notion that statistics have only been manipulated since 1997?

On your comment about undermined freedom of speech, I can only laugh. Your persecution complex must run very high. I just hope nobody from anywhere in the world where freedom of speech is really an issue is ready thing.

And finally, you must be working in the private sector - the only reason as to why you know nothing about the public sector, and are able to maintain your delusional bitterness against others you perceive as better off than you. Having worked in both (and currently working in the private sector), and therefore being in a position to judge, I can firmly say, you are wrong. Get over it, and stop blaming the other side of the coin for everything. Your agenda is nauseating. If you showed perhaps a modicum of restraint, acknowledged people's arguments, and realised that things are not always black and white, people may start believing you.

The thing missing from your post is rational counter arguement. It is really just a rant.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/recession/4378322/Britain-to-suffer-worst-recession-of-any-advanced-nation-says-IMF.html

whathavewedone

When the tories were in you could phone up a doctor at night and they'd come out to you.

My daughter had the Noro virus before Christmas and we had to dress her and take her out in the cold when she was projectile vomiting every few minutes. We weren't seen for over 40 minutes despite complaining that other people (adults) who were clearly not as ill as our 2 year old were seen before us. We'd been missed off the computer apparently but they were very sorry that we hadn't been seen within the "target" time of 40 minutes.

Ah the great improvements of the NHS since New Labour.

If you care to go on some of the mums websites out there you'll read heartbreaking stories of under 5s who've died because NHS direct have told their mums to give their kids some calpol and put them to bed. Had a real life doctor seen them they would probably have spotted that a bad cold had turned into pneumonia and lives could have been saved.

I'm 38 and I don't remember life under the tories as being that bad at all, despite a period of unemployment in my early 20s. I had enough money to live on and then got put on a secretarial training course with bus fares paid. This enabled me to get a job - there being little call for Latin and English graduates in a recession. I got a job in a law firm and eventually (many years of studying while working full time later) became a lawyer.

So there you go, 6 months on the dole in a conservative recession and steps were taken to get you back into work. No one starved but being on benefits was definitely a lean way of living - working was far preferable. I was a lazy cow then, if the state had allowed me to continue living my student lifestyle I'm sure I would have been happy to take the money

whathavewedone

I must say I find the propagandist pictorial record of life under the tories a very adolescent way of responding to a thread about whether and to what extent Brown is responsible for the recession.

I hate that kind of badge wearing, poster wielding politics. It's all about soundbites and mud slinging and talking in a silly voice to try to sound less middle class.

amcluesent

>I'm 38 and I don't remember life under the tories as being that bad at all<

I'm 44 and the 1980's (post Falkland war) were fantastic. My salary increased 25% in just one year in 1985! Of course, I got on my bike and grafted, rather than grumbling that t'pit was closing.

Britain got it's mojo back with Mrs T. Good times.

What has Clown given us? "The worst recession for 100 years", says Ed Balls, Clown confidant and would be leader of NuLabour.

macaque_2

amcluesent wrote: »

>I'm 38 and I don't remember life under the tories as being that bad at all<

I'm 44 and the 1980's (post Falkland war) were fantastic. My salary increased 25% in just one year in 1985! Of course, I got on my bike and grafted, rather than grumbling that t'pit was closing.

Britain got it's mojo back with Mrs T. Good times.

What has Clown given us? "The worst recession for 100 years", says Ed Balls, Clown confidant and would be leader of NuLabour.

I agree.

In the 90s, Labour imported a very agressive campaigning style from the US. They targeted people with personal vilification and set out to destroy reputations, lives and careers. In short, it was a McCarthyist witch hunt. Everything connected with Conservative politics was sullied daily by Labour supporters in the Guardian, the BBC, the mirror, the sun etc. Night after night, BBC comedians would mock and denigrate Conservatives. A comedy series (The New Statesman) was written with the author's admitted aim of bringing down the Tories. Despite creating the best economic circumstances for generations, John Major was relentlessly defamed. In the most nausiating episode of the lot Martin Bell was dressed up in a white suit and introduced to the world as the anti sleaze candidate. Labour refused to stand against and with a po face they declared that they only wanted to stop the sleaze.

Sleaze has not left government since Labour came to power. If anything is seems to be worse. All political parties have corrupt politicians.

Whilst I suspect people were happy to elect Labour for the first term of office, I think there are many that regret giving them a second and third chance. Not only has the economy been run into a swamp but Labour have involved us in more wars than we have seen for generations. They have curtailed free speech, and turned the UK into 'surveillence island'. We are more watched and more controlled than any other country in Europe. Every day we get told that the chocolate rations have been increased under Labour, but secretly we know our lives are getting worse.