Council Tax & Bailiffs

RobertoMoir

kiddo1982 wrote: »

I recently received a letter from bailiffs who had attended my flat for collection of unpaid council tax. I owe £360 but have not had any contact with this bailiff. They wrote on the letter that they will be back this week and will take my property even if im not in and they say they can do this due to the liability order they have. Is this true? Can they enter without me being here? I have tried to contact the bailiff but he is not answering. I dont want to come home tomorrow and my stuff has gone!!

The bailiffs can and will use misleading language to try and scare you into paying. Arguably, providing they don't cross a particular line, this is their job. Let's look at what they say:

They wrote on the letter that they will be back this week and will take my property even if im not in and they say they can do this due to the liability order they have. Is this true?

To a degree, yes. The degree is that they can't force their way into your house or break in or anything like that, but they can gain what is termed "peaceable entry".

They can call back any time (within reason). They are allowed to do so because of the liability order.

Can they enter without me being here?

This is the tough bit. A responsible adult needs to be there for peaceable entry to be valid. That doesn't just mean you, unless of course you live by yourself.

I'm going to repost some general advice I've posted before on what bailiffs can and can not do.

You shouldn't allow bailiffs into your home, but if they have a warrant that allows them to do so, it's up to them to attempt to gain entry peacefully, not for you to tell them whether or not you allow them to! I'm a former bailiff and we never used to take much notice of what people told us they were going to "allow" us to do, we simply concentrated on what we were legally entitled to do.

For this kind of debt, unless the bailiff has been into your house already and has levied distress on goods in the house and got you to sign a document called a 'walking possession' then they cannot force their way into your house.

They only have the right to gain 'peaceable entry' (presuming my assumptions are correct about them not being in before).

• Peaceable entry doesn't include kicking your door down or getting a locksmith to drill your locks. This is something they can't do.
• Peaceable entry does include tricking someone into letting them in "Oh really? You say you've spoke to the council, can I come in to use your phone to double-check what they said?"
• Peaceable entry does include climbing in through an open window or going round the back to try your back door in case you forgot to lock it.

Speak to the council and find out for yourself if they won't accept an arrangement from you. Some will and some won't in my experience. If they do, great; if they don't, then it isn't like you've lost anything or incurred more costs just for asking.

Be very careful about letting the bailiff into your house to levy distress. Once they're in, they have the right to remove goods there and then. Not saying they will, in fact they probably won't because they'd rather have the money, but you do need to understand the stakes that you're playing with at this point.

kiddo1982

Thanks for everyone's advice. I will call the council tomorrow and try to make an arrangement. Ive just realised my debt is more than I originally thought, the bailiff must have a part of the debt and the rest with the council. Hopefully they allow me to put it all together!

combo81

Can I ask, do you work? And if so, why didnt you pay the council tax, or if you knew you were in difficulty contact them early on and explain the situation.

Danielle_ODonoghue

First things first- the Bailiffs collecting council tax only have the right to peaceful entry which includes and open door or window. Also the person that lets them in has to be over the age of 18. You do have the right to ask bailiffs to leave if you open the door and do not want to let them in. They are NOT allowed to force their way in or break in.

Once a bailiff has peaceful entry they can take a list of the goods in your home they wish to take to settle the debt. The goods can only be ones that belong to you and ones that are not needed for basic living. The walking possession order must be signed. The items on the list must be full itemised it can not just say dvd's- they would have to be individually listed.

Any negotiations you make with the bailiffs to repay the debt back must be done in writing this is to prove should the matter be referred back to the courts that you are trying to sort the debt out and you have proof of what you have written to the bailiffs.

When making a payment offer remember that this is a priority debt. If the bailiffs accept the payment offer it is very important that you keep up to date as the bailiffs will not like it if you miss one. If they reject the offer try and make the payments to the council if they will not accept it either (as most councils don't) keep the money to one side, again in the event that the account is passed back to the courts.

The bailiffs are allowed to add charges which are set. They can charge £24.50 for the first visit and £18 for a second visit. They cannot charge for any further visits. If you never let them into the property there should be no further charges added. If the debt increases write to the bailiffs requesting a breakdown of the account to show fees and challenge any that are wrong or should not be added.

Hope this helps!

STAMPETER

Ally_84 wrote: »

A council can take action from you following the granting of a Liability Order. There are very few defences to the granting of this order and you dont have to be there for it to happen. The main defence is that the tax hasnt been set correctly which will never happen... others are that you've not been notified, but in this case the council only have to prove they've requested to send you letters - there's no proof about receipt or delivery time.

If your local Council have had a Liability Order granted against you then they do have permission to remove your goods, however they have to write an inventory of things they are going to take. For example, they will come on the 8th of the month and write an inventory stating that unless the debt is paid, or repayment is a agreed in the next 7 days they will take your tele/computer/car etc. If in 7 days you havent agreed repayment or paid in full, the bailiff is allowed to come and take your goods... they will never break into your house, but if your car is on the street and that is included in the inventory they can take it.

If you do none of the above and the bailiffs dont contact you then they can post a 'Notice of Intended Committal' through your door. This means your council can apply to the courts to commit you to prison for a maximum of 90 days. The council's case will be based on your lack of contact and/or your refusal to pay. They may carry out a full assessment of your finances and force you to repay a fixed amount to be reviewed in say 3 months. Equally, they may demand you are committed to prison for non payment... this does get your debt written off but will mean you have a criminal record.

At this stage, the choice is yours... however i would advise you to contact your council, ask to make an arrangement, ask for an 'Income and Expenditure form' and possibly exaggerate your rent and other outgoings, and offer a monthly/weekly repayment to suit you... but please bear in mind if you dont keep up with any arrangement, they can attach to your earnings, which means a percentage of your wages is taken each month or £3.05 of income support/jsa/pension credit is taken each week, or they can thow you straight back into court to send you to prison at a cost of at least £90.00 on top of the debt.

Its your choice, but if i had any say in the matter i would say... "contact your council and repay the debt"...Its not what you want to hear, but its the best option, and the cheapest in the long run.... think about it, £20 a week in a council office, £40 a week out of your wages, a bailiff taking your pc and tele or a criminal record for life (Just examples but you see the point)

Good luck - and yes, i am a senior officer in a council tax department so if you need any more info please just ask xxx

Hello, first time on here, please excuse any unintended mistakes.

Why don't council "officers" (public servants) operate on behalf of the public they are supposed to be serving, and why don't they give out correct answers or information??

I will try to chronologise my post whilst at the same time drawing pointers from your post quoted above.

After the council failing to clear up some discrepancies, giving me misinformation and my having their untruths in writing - I was issued a summons, purporting to be issued by a Magistrate. As I had some enquiries regarding this summons, and being unable to read the illegible signature and there being no signature block attached, I telephoned the Magistrates offices. There was no record of my having been summoned. When I gave a "case number" to try that on the computer system, I was told that was a council number, and that I should contact the council. No clear explanation forthcoming for why this should be so, I was eventually put through to a Courts Administration Manager, who could also give me no reasonable explanation. To cut a long story short, I eventually wrote to and received a reply from the Deputy Clerk to the Justices who informs me that the council issue the summonses!
Wait a minute - - the council is the complainant, - it clearly states on the summons, "..the council has today made complaint...." so WHO in the council, is the clerk to the justice, who's signature is on the summons?? How can the person complaining to the magistrate, also ISSUE the summons?

My summons stated, ..."you are hereby summoned to the Magistrates Court to EXPLAIN why...." - -- So why would ANYONE need a DEFENCE when they have not been CHARGED with anything??

I arrived at the appointed court, at the appointed time, and was met by a member of the council staff. I requested to be taken before the Magistrate, who's name I had still not been informed of. Eventually, after requesting THREE times to see the magistrate, it was confirmed that there was NO MAGISTRATE IN ATTENDANCE, SITTING, OR EVEN ON THAT FLOOR LEVEL. In fact, on going through into the court - there were approx ten/twelve tables, each with two chairs on either side, and seated there were council staff making "arrangements" and "contracts" with various members of the public. I was myself invited to sit at a table where the member of the council attempted to discuss my council tax. This is a blatant INTERFERING IN A DUE LEGAL PROCESS. There being no Magistrate in attendance - then the council staff are surely guilty of bringing me to a designated place under false pretences??
Being parked on a meter, the Magistrate having failed the appointment and the council staff having unlawfully delayed me, I informed them that I did not wish to incur the troubles of passing to them of or the refuting of, the imminent issueance of a parking charge notice, that they should sort out exactly WHO was in charge of what, who was running which department, and that they should make another appointment at a mutually convenient time in the near future.
I am now informed that the council obtained a Liability Order, the informing letter containing the usual THREATS and EXHORTATIONS of fines and imprisonment. (All of this from a "caring public body!").
So how has the order been obtained, when there wasn't a Magistrate available, and the Senior council member confirmed this fact?
The information letter states that a Certified Bailiff will be sent - and then gives details of Bailiffs costs and fees on the rear of the letter, with no name and address of the certified bailliff.
So we are now at the situation of - The Council is the COMPLAINANT - the CLERK TO THE JUSTICE - the SUMMONS ISSUER - THE PERSON WHO LAYS DOWN THE LEVEL OF FINE AND PUNISHMENT - the PERSON WHO LIMITS YOUR DEFENCE TO TWO MAIN DEFENCES (so they are also lawyers?) - TELLS YOU that you are to EXPLAIN - so why would you need a defence?? - and are also THE CERTIFIED BAILIFFS???

There has also been no valid explanation to my request for clarification of how the Local Government Finance Act 1972 - SUPERCEDES the Bills of Exchange Act 1882, where it clearly states that there must be no THREATS or EXHORTATIONS in any bill, invoice or request for payments.

Furthermore, no one member of the council has provided me with the Act, section, sub-section or any amendment thereof, which allows any council to circumvent the Treason and Felony Act 1848.

There has also been no mention of the breaching of the Petition of Right 1627 nor the Bill of Rights 1689.

The non-adherence of the councils and subsequent breaching of these Acts and Petitions are themselves acts of Treason - and in the Treason and Felony Act 1848, I am liable to a sentence of Life Imprisonment (As amended in the Crime and Disorder Bill (Amendments) Act of 1998. (The Enabling Act?).

ALL COUNCILS & police authorities are listed companies - and I have had no explanation as to why a private company would wish to use any of my monies - Why not?
Nor have I been shown any signed contracts between us. Surely this is a case of the council/company obtaining monies by deception which equals Fraud?

Please do not misunderstand me - I firmly believe that we should all contribute to the maintenance of Street Lighting, Libraries, etc etc, and have indeed requested a properly made out INVOICE signed by the drawer in the council/company department who is so authorised to do so.

However, I will NOT under ANY circumstances, pay for other persons copper-bottomed pensions, so called "expences and / or allowances" or other day to day expenditures or so called "sundries".

And yes, I am not a Senior "officer" in a council tax department, just a law abiding guy who has never been in trouble, ran out of money some time ago due to government and council policies and is eagerly awaiting your answers to my questions above.

Best Regards, xxx John.

STAMPETER

Danielle_ODonoghue wrote: »

First things first- the Bailiffs collecting council tax only have the right to peaceful entry which includes and open door or window. Also the person that lets them in has to be over the age of 18. You do have the right to ask bailiffs to leave if you open the door and do not want to let them in. They are NOT allowed to force their way in or break in.

Once a bailiff has peaceful entry they can take a list of the goods in your home they wish to take to settle the debt. The goods can only be ones that belong to you and ones that are not needed for basic living. The walking possession order must be signed. The items on the list must be full itemised it can not just say dvd's- they would have to be individually listed.

Any negotiations you make with the bailiffs to repay the debt back must be done in writing this is to prove should the matter be referred back to the courts that you are trying to sort the debt out and you have proof of what you have written to the bailiffs.

When making a payment offer remember that this is a priority debt. If the bailiffs accept the payment offer it is very important that you keep up to date as the bailiffs will not like it if you miss one. If they reject the offer try and make the payments to the council if they will not accept it either (as most councils don't) keep the money to one side, again in the event that the account is passed back to the courts.

The bailiffs are allowed to add charges which are set. They can charge £24.50 for the first visit and £18 for a second visit. They cannot charge for any further visits. If you never let them into the property there should be no further charges added. If the debt increases write to the bailiffs requesting a breakdown of the account to show fees and challenge any that are wrong or should not be added.

Hope this helps!

Any comments for STAMPETER????

RobertoMoir

What comments do you actually want? You haven't raised discussion points, but rather just had a rant, and apparently complained you hadn't had a reply within about 4 mins at about 3 in the morning.

Herbie21

kiddo1982 wrote: »

I recently received a letter from bailiffs who had attended my flat for collection of unpaid council tax. I owe £360 but have not had any contact with this bailiff. They wrote on the letter that they will be back this week and will take my property even if im not in and they say they can do this due to the liability order they have. Is this true? Can they enter without me being here? I have tried to contact the bailiff but he is not answering. I dont want to come home tomorrow and my stuff has gone!!

May I just clear up a few points.

In the first instance there is nothing in the council tax regulations to provide for a bailiff to write you a letter to advice you that they have been instructed and neither can he charge a letter fee.

On the point of taking your property "even if you are not in". What this actually means is that if there are goods OUTSIDE of your property then he can take these goods although this is not quite so simple. The purpose of the first visit if to "levy on goods".....NOT to remove them !!!

The bailiff may charge a fee of £24.50 for "attending to levy" (where no levy was made) (ie: where nobody was home) and he can charge a second such visit at £18.00. If however he is able to levy, then he can charge ONLY a levy fee....he CANNOT also charge the fee of £24.50 or £18.00.

It is VITALY important that you contact the council for confirmation of the amount of the Liability Order, this is because in the MAJORITY of queries that we receive in our office the bailiff company have not been truthful with the amount of the LO and most have inflated the amount by £42.50 on the VERY DAY the LO was passed to them by the local authority. This "£42.50" is the amount of 2 visits !! Yesterday we had two cases where the true amount of the Liability Order was exactly £100 less and on the second case £125 !!! so please do make enquiries !!!

This abuse would NOT happen if the debtor was sent a copy of the Liability Order or the bailiff was under an obligation to provide a copy.

On the matter of the bailiff company threatening committal proceedings, there is this possibility...BUT with nearly 3 million Liability Orders being issued for non payment of council tax, this is really for much more serious non payers and in fact I personally believe that the numbers of such cases referred to the courts for committal will DECREASE with the introduction of the proposed new court fee of nearly £400 as opposed to the current fee of £90 !!!

combo81

STAMPETER wrote: »

Any comments for STAMPETER????

Yeh, pay your council tax like the rest of us.

Ally_84

f.a.o Stampeter:

It’s likely that the Council Staff didn’t see any point in you seeing a Magistrate unless you had a valid defence about the granting of your Liability Order. If you did have a valid defence, and the relevant proof, a Magistrate would’ve been made available for you to see.

The only ‘valid defences’ that a Magistrates would ever take into account are that you have paid the Council Tax and costs in full already before the court date, or that the amount has not been legally demanded from you because a legal conditions have not been met. These are that the council hasn’t sent you a bill (giving you 14 days to pay) a reminder or a final notice, or a Summons dated at least 7 days before the court date. They only have to prove they’ve been sent and not that Postman Pat has actually put them through your door. The more obscure of the Legal Conditions is that the council hasn’t met at a full council meeting, set the tax or published in a local paper – if none of these apply the Order will be granted regardless.

The Magistrate would not make any exceptions if you say you can’t afford to pay, you are waiting on Benefit being granted or you have an outstanding appeal.

From your message it seems like the order was granted correctly and whilst the letters may not be nice, and may seem threatening to you, it is a tax and deos need to be paid, in the same way that you'd expect your income tax to be taken from your wages, or your mortgage payments to be made. It is a priority debt that needs to be addressed before you look at sky tv or a broadband connection. It may not be what you want to hear, but it's true.

My advice?? Contact you council, make an arrangement, and try to avoid any further costs, such as Bailiff fees, or the embarrassment of your employer being asked to take it straight from your wages.