UPDATED: Air Source Heat Pumps/Air Con - Full Info & Guide, is it cheaper to run than mains gas?

richardc1983

ScottW wrote: »

Hi All,

I have spent a lot of time trawling round this forum and am very interested now in getting an ASHP with air conditioning units. I like the sound of the Sanyo ECO CO2 system but I think that is for a system with radiators (please correct me if I'm wrong). So what I want to know is all the units that I would require for outside and inside to heat and provide hot water for a 3 bed detached bungalow so that I can get an idea of the costs involved. At present we just have very inefficient / costly electric storage heaters and immersion heater for hot water.

richardc1983 you seem to have the sort of set-up that we are looking for, would you be able to give me the sort of details I'm needing please?? Also how is your hot water heated?

Many thanks for any responses.

ScottW

Hi ScottW

I trust to find you well.

I live in a rented property. The hot water is provided by a gas boiler, which is the same boiler to all the flats.

Heating is provided by an LG multisplit type air conditioning units, I have indoor fan coil units in all the bedrooms x 2 and one in the lounge. The heat then gets through to the hallway, kitchen and bathrooms by leaving internal doors open, we oversized all the indoor units to allow for the area of the hall, bathroom, kitchen etc.

I have 2 of these units, one in the lounge and main bedroom:

http://www.lg.com/uk/air-conditioning/multi-split-systems/LG-MV12AH.NE0.jsp

And one of these in the 2nd bedroom:

http://www.lg.com/uk/air-conditioning/multi-split-systems/LG-MS12AH.N40.jsp

Connected to this outdoor unit:

http://www.lg.com/uk/air-conditioning/multi-split-systems/LG-FM25AH.UE3.jsp

The outdoor unit allows me to connect upto 4 indoor units, so if you wanted a unit in your hallway you could have this to help heat the hallway, mine is a flat so works very well.

The fact you also live in a bungalow means you could perhaps use a ducted system, a very clean finish as you have the loft space to mount the indoor unit.

A ducted unit can be seen on the very first page of this post, as can other type of units. However you would not have individual control over each room unless you fitted separate fan coil units above each room. E.g you could have 1 unit serving the lounge and perhaps the bathroom (higher lounge temps mean a warmer bathroom in winter, and then a unit serving the bedroom areas, with a 3rd unit serving the hall & kitchen areas. Ducted units are more expensive however but look neater.

Having indoor fan units allows you to have air conditioning in the summer and its a nice warm heat in the winter with fast response times.

There is a few videos of my system running on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mUzYHEfQEY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JZvqFWpA7U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0g0Y0_tL_E

We had the units fitted before we refurbed and decorated our flat so do excuse the state of furnishings etc!

The system works very well.

If I was to do it again, I would use a different brand of system, I.e Daikin, Mistubishi, Or Mitsubishi Heavy INdustries as the equipment works better and is more efficient.

THe system I have is ok but isnt advanced as the leading manufactures.

If you have a gas boiler now, I would continue to use that for heating and just get your ASHP for heating.

Stevehead who is also a user on here has a similar setup for me and continues to use his very old gas boiler for hot water, he has saved an absolute fortune in heating bills.

This is his system

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCehY4KKE74&playnext_from=TL&videos=CWsBB_HOcSw

Hope that helps.

Cardew

ScottW wrote: »

Hi All,

I have spent a lot of time trawling round this forum and am very interested now in getting an ASHP with air conditioning units. I like the sound of the Sanyo ECO CO2 system but I think that is for a system with radiators (please correct me if I'm wrong). So what I want to know is all the units that I would require for outside and inside to heat and provide hot water for a 3 bed detached bungalow so that I can get an idea of the costs involved. At present we just have very inefficient / costly electric storage heaters and immersion heater for hot water.

richardc1983 you seem to have the sort of set-up that we are looking for, would you be able to give me the sort of details I'm needing please?? Also how is your hot water heated?

Many thanks for any responses.

ScottW

Unless you can fit ducting to each room, a warm air(and thus Aircon) ASHP does not readily lend itself to installation in a bungalow -especially with 3 bedrooms.

The difficulty is getting the warm air to each room without leaving doors open.

Richard states that with a singly unit ducted system it is not possible to have individual control of heat in each room; and that is true in the sense that the heated air will be at the same temperature.

However I have such a system abroad and the size of the ducting outlet is matched to the size of the room and each outlet grill can be shut off or partially opened to control the amount of warm(or cold) air that enters each room. Much like in a car the dashboard grills control the fresh air entering the car.

However to retro-fit ducting to 6+ rooms in a property is a major undertaking.

Also without gas you still have the problem of heating water.

richardc1983

Cardew wrote: »

Unless you can fit ducting to each room, a warm air(and thus Aircon) ASHP does not readily lend itself to installation in a bungalow -especially with 3 bedrooms.

Richard states that with a singly unit ducted system it is not possible to have individual control of heat in each room; and that is true in the sense that the heated air will be at the same temperature.


However to retro-fit ducting to 6+ rooms in a property is a major undertaking.

.

Cardew whilst there would be control and heating issues with a one unit ducted system serving the whole bungalow, my example solution was to fit 3 individual fan coil units that would serve each of the "zoned areas" this would allow individual temperature control of each zone.

A bungalow unless converted with an upstairs has plenty of loft space to allow for supply and return ducting.

I know of many people with bungalows that have done this and are very happy with the systems.

The alternative is wall mounted or floor mounted units.

However if it was myself I would go for ducted system.

The Ecodan could run ducted units just as it could run any other air con units.

ScottW_3

Thank you so much Richard and Cardew for your very informative posts and the videos were most helpful as well. I think that Richard's zoned areas would work very well here with the ducted systems.

Yes, one unit for lounge and bathroom would work very well (bathroom gets very cold in the Winter as no form of heat in there apart from heated towel rail).

One unit for the hall and kitchen - this might need some thought as kitchen tends to keep pretty warm due to cooking and the utility room, which is a smallish room with open plan to kitchen, has the freezer and fridge so wouldn't really want that very warm.

The three bedrooms, hmmm, that is slightly more difficult to get right. They are 3 rooms, side by side, in the older part of the house (built around 1900 with walls that are about 2 feet thick). The first room is the main bedroom and that would require most of the heat, the second room is my study which I like to keep cool so probably would not require any heating in here at all, although on very cold days would be nice to blast in a bit of heat for a short while. The 3rd room is used just as a dressing room but always has the door left open, so that could get its heat from the unit in the hall.

I wouldn't expect the installation of ducting to be a problem here as we have a big loft that you can stand upright in (unless you are more than 5' 6" tall (!)). The bungalow is an L-shaped building with the old part being the hall, 3 bedrooms and bathroom, and the new part (built in 1997) is the lounge, kitchen and utility rooms.

If we went for the ducting units, could anyone give me an idea of the cost of the ducting and the installation costs for the whole house, assuming I used an MCS (sorry, I think that's the right name, if not, you know what I mean I'm sure!) approved installer?

Still got to work out what to do about heating for the DHW. We have an immersion heater at present, would this be our best option do you think, given that there is no gas to this area, although could get LPG gas.

Also, what about maintenance, do you recommend a maintenance contract or is it unlikely to need any specialist attention?

Am I correct in thinking that I could not use the Sanyo ECO CO2 system with a warm air ducted system?

All your efforts on this forum have been very much appreciated.

richardc1983

ScottW wrote: »

Thank you so much Richard and Cardew for your very informative posts and the videos were most helpful as well. I think that Richard's zoned areas would work very well here with the ducted systems.

Yes, one unit for lounge and bathroom would work very well (bathroom gets very cold in the Winter as no form of heat in there apart from heated towel rail).

One unit for the hall and kitchen - this might need some thought as kitchen tends to keep pretty warm due to cooking and the utility room, which is a smallish room with open plan to kitchen, has the freezer and fridge so wouldn't really want that very warm.

The three bedrooms, hmmm, that is slightly more difficult to get right. They are 3 rooms, side by side, in the older part of the house (built around 1900 with walls that are about 2 feet thick). The first room is the main bedroom and that would require most of the heat, the second room is my study which I like to keep cool so probably would not require any heating in here at all, although on very cold days would be nice to blast in a bit of heat for a short while. The 3rd room is used just as a dressing room but always has the door left open, so that could get its heat from the unit in the hall.

I wouldn't expect the installation of ducting to be a problem here as we have a big loft that you can stand upright in (unless you are more than 5' 6" tall (!)). The bungalow is an L-shaped building with the old part being the hall, 3 bedrooms and bathroom, and the new part (built in 1997) is the lounge, kitchen and utility rooms.

If we went for the ducting units, could anyone give me an idea of the cost of the ducting and the installation costs for the whole house, assuming I used an MCS (sorry, I think that's the right name, if not, you know what I mean I'm sure!) approved installer?

Still got to work out what to do about heating for the DHW. We have an immersion heater at present, would this be our best option do you think, given that there is no gas to this area, although could get LPG gas.

Also, what about maintenance, do you recommend a maintenance contract or is it unlikely to need any specialist attention?

Am I correct in thinking that I could not use the Sanyo ECO CO2 system with a warm air ducted system?

All your efforts on this forum have been very much appreciated.

The Sanyo system is only for underfloor heating systems it seems from the info on their website.

When you mention you would want your study and kitchen not too hot then the air supply grilles into the rooms are adjustable so you can reduce the flow of air into the room so they do not get as much heat, you balance the system a bit like you do with your car air vents when you close vents off etc. Once set you will prob never have to adjust them. It really is that simple. It just needs designing properly by a specialist contractor.

Bathrooms etc are best off the lounge unit as these units will be running for longer given that your lounge is probably the warmest room in the house and higher set points than say the bedrooms etc.

Maintenance, you would get the system serviced once a year by a proffesional who will come and check the system over, kind of like a boiler service... he will clean the heat exchangers and ensure it is runnning efficiently etc.

Every 2 months (depending on usage) you would go up into the loft and clean the filters on the fan coil units... this involves taking the filters down out of the loft and vacuuming them and then putting them back in. Other than that you just use the system as you would any other system.

Installation costs etc I would not be able to advise against, this will be more than if you was fitting wall mounted units as there is more installation work involved.

Best place to ask that question would be:

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=14

Plenty of engineers... if you go on there state the type of setup you are interested in and the area your in you will get some engineers who will be able to perhaps quote you... always best to get a couple of quotes etc.

ScottW_3

Thanks Richard,

That's odd that you could only find info on the Sanyo system with regards to underfloor heating - the info I found was all about installing radiators with it!

So presumably if two or more rooms are being fed from one indoor unit, this could only be done with ducting and the ducting would go up to the loft to some central hub unit and from there dispersed to the required rooms by further ducting?

Isn't it downright annoying that manufacturers will display their products really well but will not give you any idea of their prices unless you write to them directly. At this stage I am just gathering facts so that I can create various spreadsheets listing different options and the cost of each option, so that I can then show these to my wife to discuss the various options. Do you have knowledge of any secret websites that show the prices for these units by any chance?

ScottW_3

One other question I forgot to ask was whether you consider warm air systems to be more hazardous with regards to fire and smoke problems and also problem of Legionnaires Disease, than a system with radiators? Thanks.

richardc1983

ScottW wrote: »

Thanks Richard,

That's odd that you could only find info on the Sanyo system with regards to underfloor heating - the info I found was all about installing radiators with it!

So presumably if two or more rooms are being fed from one indoor unit, this could only be done with ducting and the ducting would go up to the loft to some central hub unit and from there dispersed to the required rooms by further ducting?

Isn't it downright annoying that manufacturers will display their products really well but will not give you any idea of their prices unless you write to them directly. At this stage I am just gathering facts so that I can create various spreadsheets listing different options and the cost of each option, so that I can then show these to my wife to discuss the various options. Do you have knowledge of any secret websites that show the prices for these units by any chance?

SOrry I forgot to type that the sanyo system is a wet system and is for radiators or underfloor heating... my error.

You have the idea of how the setup might be correct... in your case you would have upto 3 indoor units up in your loft with ducting branching out to serve different rooms in your home.

These indoor units can either be connected to individual outdoor units, or a multi split unit like I have... "3 indoor units on one outdoor unit."

Prices is hard to say really as you are probably going to have to go through an installer to get the equipment you need.

YOu need to work out how much heating you require by doing heat load calculations of each room, then you know what size unit you need serving each area.

Eg lounge might be 3.5kws whereas the bedrooms might only be 2kws and things like kitchen 1.5kw etc. Ducted systems might be rather expensive option for you wheareas you could fit each room that requires heating with wall mounted units like I have and these would be a lot cheaper to buy as the indoor units can be purchased quite cheaply. With ducted systems you have to buy all your ducting and theres all the labour involved in laying vents... however I have seen it done many a time and it always looks spot on and the system works very well.

Prices of units vary depending on their output so theres no point in me saying.

I would get some independant quotes from that refrigeration forum by posting on their the setup your interested.

This is why you need to get the heat load calcs done and then we can look at what units you might need etc. Easiest way to do this is by getting some companies in to quote for it.

http://www.radcalcs.com/ this site you can put measurements in of the rooms, asnwer the other questions it will give you a rough idea of the heat output you require for that room. THis is a site for radiators but the maths are the same whether it be for ASHP or for radiators etc. Its only a rough Idea.

YOu then need to work out your calculations and put them onto paper so you have each room + each room = total each zone + each zone = total heat load for the house.

I work nights so off to bed now but will not be able to reply till this evening.

Regards
Richard.

richardc1983

ScottW wrote: »

One other question I forgot to ask was whether you consider warm air systems to be more hazardous with regards to fire and smoke problems and also problem of Legionnaires Disease, than a system with radiators? Thanks.

Warm air systems are very safe, more safe than gas systems or electric heaters as they do not have any elements in them. The system works like a fridge in reverse so there is no electrical elements at all.

Legionnaires is only applicable where you have water that is standing still e.g water cooling towers or water tanks etc. The air con systems we are talking about do not use water tanks whereas if you had a system that was to heat the water as well then it would have an immersion that came on once a week to raise the water tank above 65C to kill anything that might be lurking! lol

ScottW_3

Cheers Richard. Night night!