UPDATED: Air Source Heat Pumps/Air Con - Full Info & Guide, is it cheaper to run than mains gas?

richardc1983

GGSid said:

Currently oil is extraordinarily cheap per cost of energy. It's expensive from an environmental point of view, but no one is billing me for the environmental damage my heating does.
I am eliminating oil from my life because that's the right thing to do. I am pretty sure it is going to be expensive since I will first have to install a new heating system. 
Anything that uses (daytime) electricity needs to achieve a COP somewhere >5 to reduce the running costs - Entirely possible, but I don't expect to reduce my running costs a great deal. 

This is the difficulty, you need to pair it with PV or wind generation to get some of the costs covered but then the initial outlay is extortionate and we also don't have great light levels in the winter months so when you need it most you will still be pulling from the grid. 

GGSid

richardc1983 said:

GGSid said:

Currently oil is extraordinarily cheap per cost of energy. It's expensive from an environmental point of view, but no one is billing me for the environmental damage my heating does.
I am eliminating oil from my life because that's the right thing to do. I am pretty sure it is going to be expensive since I will first have to install a new heating system. 
Anything that uses (daytime) electricity needs to achieve a COP somewhere >5 to reduce the running costs - Entirely possible, but I don't expect to reduce my running costs a great deal. 

This is the difficulty, you need to pair it with PV or wind generation to get some of the costs covered but then the initial outlay is extortionate and we also don't have great light levels in the winter months so when you need it most you will still be pulling from the grid. 

Yes there are compromises to be made. Wind is off the menu for us. If I installed PV that would swallow a lot of cash, likewise an A2W heat pump. 
Switching to electric motoring was an absolute joy, we have absolutely loved electric motoring. [The reduction in costs is also great and means a little more cash in the pot to deal with our dino juice usage]. Eating much less meat (but better quality) was not difficult either. 
Getting rid of the dinosaur juice heating is a bit tougher.

richardc1983

Yes each household has to weigh up what they can afford. I am not sure about electric cars I love my diesel and I think the damage that mining for the batteries for electric cars does is quite concerning but we need to do something. 

GGSid

Yes mining is a dirty activity, and that's not great, but if you're going to worry about it then worth noting that one of the major uses of cobalt is as a catalyst for desuperization of fossil fuels... 
Let's also not forget that extracting oil from the ground or under the sea is a dirty activity too. The cobalt can however be recycled and reused in a new battery or catalyst at end of life, you only need to dig it up once. For fossil fuels you have to keep extracting it for every tank full.

richardc1983

Good information, we should all have wind turbines in our back garden!

GGSid

richardc1983 said:

Good information, we should all have wind turbines in our back garden!

Sadly planning rules won't allow it where I live.

Mikeeuropa

Rodders53 said:.
https://nottenergy.com/resources/energy-cost-comparison/ while never 100% accurate compares the prices of different fuels.  Double the kerosene price and it's still cheaper than ashp per kWh into the home on their numbers.

That's a really interesting resource on a number of fronts.

Firstly, I was suprised to see that kerosene was actually slightly greener (CO2e) than electricity up until May this year, presumbly more wind and solar farms must have come on stream! But it's still pretty close.

Secondly, I hadn't realised how cheap (per kWh) kerosene is at the moment at 3.33p per kWh, admittedly that's calculated on a 90% efficient boiler, on my old boiler, if it's as low as even, say, 70%, that still works out at 4.29p per kWh (if my maths is right!).

And finally, I'm thinking how upset those people who took up the recommendations to go green with a wood pellet fired boiler must be. I remember looking into it a few years ago now and at the time there were assurances from whatever the pellet providers federation is/was (I can't remember the name) that the price of pellets would track the price of kerosene - this was to give assurance to those looking to fork out large sums of money on equipment that they wouldn't find themselves paying higher and higher prices as demand took off. But apparently pellets are almost twice the price of kerosene now!

The takeaway for me is to keep my old boiler ticking over until the price of kerosene gets back up to around 50p (unless it has a fatal failure before then). I know it'll be kicking out more CO2 than an ASHP but then again throwing away something that's working isn't particularly green either.

Final thought, this topic is entitled "Air Source Heat Pumps/Air Con - Full Info & Guide, is it cheaper to run than mains gas?", how come it's taken 185 pages to say "no ASHPs are not cheaper to run than mains gas"? 🤣

richardc1983

Mikeeuropa said:

Final thought, this topic is entitled "Air Source Heat Pumps/Air Con - Full Info & Guide, is it cheaper to run than mains gas?", how come it's taken 185 pages to say "no ASHPs are not cheaper to run than mains gas"? 🤣

LOL, sometimes things are not clear enough.

GGSid

Yes oil works out near 3pence per kWh and about 300g CO2. When you compare with heat pump do remember to divide the CO2 by the COP however they are not that similar... 
1 kWh of electricity creates 288g CO2 
heat pump produces e.g. 5kW heat from 1kW electricity.
then like for like 1 kW of heat from a heat pump creates (288/5=) 57 gCO2 per kw of heat.

Mikeeuropa

GGSid said:

Yes oil works out near 3pence per kWh and about 300g CO2. When you compare with heat pump do remember to divide the CO2 by the COP however they are not that similar...

In my "Firstly..." paragraph I was referring to kerosene CO2e versus straight electricity, not ASHP

GGSid said:

heat pump produces e.g. 5kW heat from 1kW electricity.

I think you'd struggle to find an ASHP with a SCOP of 5 unless I'm well out of date. But a quick Google search suggests less than 4 unless you know different?