UPDATED: Air Source Heat Pumps/Air Con - Full Info & Guide, is it cheaper to run than mains gas?

Cardew

dullnote wrote: »

Cardew I think the two of us are saying the same in different ways. The industries needs to get their act together and sell them with true expectations.

I spent two years reading everything I could about them, had companies telling me all sorts, some times I know more about the product.

You should not need to do this.

So to all ASHP installers get your act together before this ends up like solar panel fiasco. If RHI does come in this is what will happen

Indeed, this is why I started a thread entitled 'ASHP -Should do Better'

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/2968958

As you said in your earlier post:

Also if your house has draughts forget about ASHP.

In short ASHP in correct house where occupants know the difference between
boiler and ASHP, these are good, the industry does itself no favour trying to
put these in all over the place, poor reputation travels fast

However I wonder if any installer has turned down a job - with several £thousands of profit for a 1 or 2 days work - on the grounds of unsuitability of property.

The manufacturer simply leaves it to the installer and despite manufacturer's claims, there is absolutely no guarantee that the installed system will meet any kind performance criteria, and no way of the client measuring performance.

By way of example take the properties in the EST trial that achieved an overall annual COP of 1.2 or 1.6. It is almost certain that during the winter with defrosts etc that their COP would have been less than 1.0 and they would have been better off switching the ASHP off and using fan heaters and the immersion.

IMO those systems are simply 'not fit for purpose'. However as indicated above ASHP customers have no way of measuring their system efficiency.

IMO this sort of publicity is the only way to make Manufacturers face up to their responsiblities and 'police' the installers.

lovesgshp

Sounds like most of the UK "installers" jumping on the bandwagon. Here we would be prosecuted with a denouncement of the installation. Thank goodness we only deal in heat pumps and have a very good relationship with the manufacturer of over 12 years, so problems can be resolved very quickly.

nennyrainbow

Hello
Just thought I would share my experience on here. We had our 14kW Zubadan installed a week ago (same as the Ecodan but the 14kW model is sold as the Zubadan and is supposed to have better performance at low ambient temps).

We felt an ashp was the ideal solution to replace our oil boiler as the house is mostly occupied during the day and we have 2 woodburners downstairs to boost temps when needed and to provide a cosier atmosphere in the evenings. It is a 1930's detached house with 3 bedrooms in Norfolk. As part of the upgrade we supersized 3 radiators. The whole thing cost us just over 11k including VAT.

Last week I kept the house at 21C up from 6.20 am until just before dark when I lit the fires. This used up an additional approx 13kW/h per day. At 10.3p / kwh this equates to about £1.34 per day. This was at a flow temp of 40 with variable weather compensation (ie lower on mild days)

The installer came back today to see how we were getting on and to tweak the system if needed. We decided to switch off the weather compensation and run at a fixed 45C temp because I felt the the main downstairs room was struggling to reach the desired temp on mild overcast days.

Today (a fairly mild but overcast day) I heated to 22 degrees all day (6.20 until 9.30pm) without using the fires and I estimate we have used less than 20 kw/h on top of our usual consumption. So about £2 a day to keep the house warm all day and provide hot water for 4 showers seems very reasonable to me. I'm very happy with it so far.

Only drawback is the standby use: the Owl monitor shows we are using about an extra 170kW at any time during the night when the heat pump is not doing anything. This is all accounted for in my figures above. But I can see why it might not be cost effective to install an ashp in a property where heating isn't required for much of the time as it will still be using power on standby. So it might not be for everybody.

[Deleted User]

Are all the 14kw EcoDans branded Zubadan? The two I have are :huh:

Confuses me, not hard , as I was under the impression they had an aircon range branded Zubadan...

deano72_2

I went to site today.
Spoke to site agent & turned out the occupant hadent turned it on
i am still interested to hear your u1 faults..
Fitting a 3rd pump did cross my mind,but as mitisi have attended site & no mention of this so brushed it aside

Cardew

nennyrainbow wrote: »

Only drawback is the standby use: the Owl monitor shows we are using about an extra 170kW at any time during the night when the heat pump is not doing anything. This is all accounted for in my figures above. But I can see why it might not be cost effective to install an ashp in a property where heating isn't required for much of the time as it will still be using power on standby. So it might not be for everybody.

Your performance seems excellent, assuming that is an extra 170 watts

waltsalt

Cardew wrote: »

Indeed, this is why I started a thread entitled 'ASHP -Should do Better'

If you think ASHPs are a good technology (as you've stated) and loads of other posters have said they are very good and very economical to run then do you not think the title of your post is very misleading?

Should it not be something more like 'ASHP Industry/Installers - Should Do Better'?

Cardew

waltsalt wrote: »

If you think ASHPs are a good technology (as you've stated) and loads of other posters have said they are very good and very economical to run then do you not think the title of your post is very misleading?

Should it not be something more like 'ASHP Industry/Installers - Should Do Better'?

Without getting into a semantic discussion, No I don't think it 'very misleading.'

The opening paragraphs couldn't explain more clearly my purpose in starting the thread.

At the risk of mortally offending the ASHP
aficionados on this forum, there really must be something done about curbing the enthusiasm for this technology until the industry – manufacturers, installers or both - has come to grips with their problems.

A recent BBC report highlighted the poor performance of heat pumps and referred to the EST report for field trials on Heat pumps - particularly on ASHPs. http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/...mp-field-trial

I can't think that anyone could read those 2 paragraphs and not be aware of the thrust of my argument.

As for loads of other posters praising ASHPs, conversely there are loads of horror stories on MSE and across the web - not to mention the EST 12 month trial, which as far as I am aware is the only independent trial of multiple systems.

If a customer has paid £10,000+ for a badly performing system, I suggest it is little consolation to them that it is the fault of the installer rather than the underlying technology.

' Sorry Sir, but heart transplants are a well proven and largely successful technology, your wife was unlucky enough to have a poor surgeon operate'

TiredGeek

nennyrainbow wrote: »

Only drawback is the standby use: the Owl monitor shows we are using about an extra 170kW at any time during the night when the heat pump is not doing anything. This is all accounted for in my figures above. But I can see why it might not be cost effective to install an ashp in a property where heating isn't required for much of the time as it will still be using power on standby. So it might not be for everybody.

You'll find that this 170W (we hope it's W) isn't constant. It's actually the compressor heater making sure the the unit is ready to run when it's needed. It comes on and goes off when the compressor is up to temp, so now and then you'll see it then it will drop right off to just a few W for the rest of the day/night. All depends on how cold the ecodan gets

When you next talk to the installer maybe ask if they'll fit a meter to the heat pump supply so you can monitor it's usage independent to the rest of the house. I have been told that owl type things don't give an accurate reading as the inverter in the ASHP confuses them, but I'm not electronic enough to know if it's true or not.
To be sure, after all the problems we'd had, we just fitted Elster A100C meters into all the supplies (each ASHP, the water pumps, the controllers, the immersion).
Now I can be certain of what each is costing
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A100C-Elster-Compact-Secure-Metering-Electricity-Meter-Single-Phase-/170794938065?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item27c42beed1


ASHP – Should do better - Must Do Better (There's no problem with the threads title, short and to the point).
Cardew is entitled to his opinion, and even as a happy owner I agree 100% with him: these things are not for everyone and fitting is critical.
I won't go further into that as it's covered in the other thread....
"sorry sir, cars are a tried and trusted technology, it's just unfortunate that we let our untrained monkey loose on your's"

Ecodans / Zubadans
My first pair were marked Ecodan, then the factory swapped them for Zubadan, and the six units I've had since then have all been Zuba.
I was told it was an upgrade to the units to make them more efficient at really low temps so they changed the name to distinguish between the models.
Probably BS but I'm not bothered what they're called as long as they work

waltsalt

Cardew wrote: »

Without getting into a semantic discussion, No I don't think it 'very misleading.'

The opening paragraphs couldn't explain more clearly my purpose in starting the thread.



I can't think that anyone could read those 2 paragraphs and not be aware of the thrust of my argument.

If it takes two paragraphs to explain what is meant by a title then it would suggest the title is far from clear. Maybe even misleading.

@TiredGeek - of course Cardew is entitled to an opinion. And I respect that opinion. What I said about the title of his thread was nothing to do with the actual content of his thread.