'Should we trade with China?' poll results/discussion

mcgazz

oldagetraveller wrote: »

What a pity that when profit/greed takes over, human rights go right out of the window.
I'm amazed that people are voting to strengthen trade with this oppressive regime, you should hang your heads in shame. If you don't think they're oppressive, ask the people of Tibet who've been under their control for 50+ years!
And no, I'm not usually a tree hugging yoghurt knitting eco nazi either.

Where do you buy from, then?

RUFFYONEVILLA

Nevermind the disgraceful human rights record of the Chinese, what about animal cruelty?
This country cages dogs like we we cage chickens, ships them around to be killed for meat inside restaurants. They put cats into boiling water, pull them out and skin them ALIVE, then let them die an excruciating death.

Still not bothered?
Dont care about animals OR your fellow human beings?

How about the environment? We're all !!!!!!ed when that goes to pot and who do you think produces most of the carbon dioxide that is causing global warming?

Yes its the Chinese. And what is most of the fuel burnt for?
Yep, producing goods and shipping them half way round the world for westerners.

So come on the 36% where is your compassion?
I sorry thats gone with the credit crunch has it? Along with your ability to get out of bed and get to work I suppose.

The people of this county are a disgrace to our forebears.

If I was in government I'd have some balls, weaken trade with China and advise them it will weaken further until they start to show progress on all of the above issues.

mcgazz

RUFFYONEVILLA wrote: »

Nevermind the disgraceful human rights record of the Chinese, what about animal cruelty?
This country cages dogs like we we cage chickens

Does that mean that caging chickens is acceptable? Your views on what animals it is acceptable to eat are shaped by your cultural outlook and upbringing. An awful lot of Chinese people, btw, would be equally appalled by the way people in this country treat their elderly relatives, leaving them to live alone in poverty. One person's idea of right and wrong is not everyone's.

RUFFYONEVILLA wrote: »

who do you think produces most of the carbon dioxide that is causing global warming?

Yes its the Chinese.

China does not produce "most" of the world's CO2 emissions. It's only recently passed the USA as the single biggest producer (have you been boycotting the USA?), but India is not far behind and, per capita, Russia and Canada are pretty hefty producers too. Why single out China?

RUFFYONEVILLA wrote: »

The people of this county are a disgrace to our forebears.

Our forebears who fought two wars with the Chinese to ensure the trade in cheap opium continued, stole Hong Kong, forced Christianity on to parts of China, and subjugated the country in the late 19th century. I'm very glad we've moved on since then.

poker_face

mcgazz wrote: »

Trade between the UK and China is not one-way. We sell them financial services (insert your own joke here), environmental technology and luxury and sporting goods. They also reprocess a lot of our domestic refuse. Cutting all ties with China would destroy UK jobs, lead to more rubbish processing (or even landfill) here, as well as leading to much higher prices and much less choice in things like clothes/shoes, toys, and consumer electronics. It's one thing to make high-minded statements on an internet messageboard, another to suffer a hefty drop in one's living standards.

Also, what country has a perfect human rights record? Are you going to boycott pretty much all of Africa, Central America, the Middle East, South Asia, Russia, a fair bit of Eastern Europe, and the USA (torture, tasers and Guantanamo Bay, anyone)? And what about the Western corporations involved in these human rights abuses (eg Coca Cola's murder of trade unionists in South America)? Will you boycott them as well? What countries are legit, here? As an example, OTOH, even uber-right-on Scandinavia isn't perfect - Norway's whale hunting, Sweden's harsh treatment of teenage anti-capitalist protesters and former programme of sterilising women with learning difficulties, the marginalisation of the Saami (Laplanders) in both countries, and religious intolerance in Denmark.

You'd still be a hypocrite, anyway - Britain's human rights record isn't that hot, either. We've got people interned without trial, freedom of speech is restricted, we've got more CCTV per head of population than any other country in the world, MPs' confidentiality isn't respected, and it's not that long ago that we were doing similar things in Northern Ireland and several former colonies to what China are alleged to be doing in Tibet now. I'm no fan of the Bible, but I think "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" is a cracking line.

If you want China's human rights record to change, the best way is to engage them on the issue, not throw a strop, engage in some hypocritical and unsustainable boycott and spend your free time hunting down Romanian-made jeans and Turkish shoes, while your children complain that they're bored with Lego being their only toy (you will, of course, have junked your TV/DVD/PSP/hi-fi because they will almost certainly contain Chinese-made components, even if they were largely assembled elsewhere).

Exactly, I didn't see anyone proposing sanctions to the US when they were breaching human rights in Guantanamo.
Unfortunately it would take a power bigger than China to make them change their ways, and short of a uprising from their own people i don't think there is anyone more powerful than China.

studioeng

I think this is the wrong question to ask with these answers... What the question should be is: Which of these do you think Mr G Brown is going to do!?

chardir

Shouldn't we be strengthening trade in order to gain more political influence over China's human rights policies?

Fireman_sam_4

This is a really interesting question, which, to me, speaks volumes about the one way mirror that we in the ‘civilized’ West view much of the rest of the world. We are taught much, through our schooling and our media, of the crimes of others but next to nothing of our own crimes.

If you take a simple look at some random examples of the crimes Britain and the US have carried out then it becomes clear that the human rights abuses of China pale into insignificance when compared to ours.

Take for instance the following examples:

Indonesia – Britain and the US gave training, funding, and military equipment to brutal dictator General Suharto who slaughtered an estimated 500,000 to a million human beings. Kissinger, on behalf of the US, gave him the green light for the killings.

Vietnam – at least 2 million Vietnamese (a quarter of those killed in the Holocaust) were slaughtered by the US. The chemical weapons they used are still causing horrendous birth defects today.

Cambodia – as a side show to the Vietnam War the US bombed Cambodia killing an estimated 500,000 human beings. This led to the rise of Pol Pot who stepped into the power vacuum and enacted a genocide of monstrous proportions. Britain and the US then went on to fund and train his movement the Khmer Rouge in exile. Why? Because Vietnam liberated the country.

Iraq– The first gulf war caused the deaths of 250,000 Iraqis. Our sanctions on the country then caused the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children. Round 2 ‘Operation Iraqi Freedom’ has so far caused the deaths of over a million Iraqi human beings and poisoned their country with radioactive depleted uranium which, like Vietnam, is causing monstrous birth defects. And don’t forget that it was the CIA that installed the ruling Ba’ath party from which Saddam emerged (described by the CIA man responsible as ‘my favourite coup’).

Africa - It is current British policy to export arms and military equipment to ten out of 14 of Africa’s most war-bloodied and impoverished countries.

I could go on and on and on. We are, simply stated, in no position whatsoever to moralise with other countries when it comes to human rights.

As it says in the Bible, “You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

MSE_Martin

studioeng wrote: »

I think this is the wrong question to ask with these answers... What the question should be is: Which of these do you think Mr G Brown is going to do!?

That would've been easy - GB said he wants to "strengthen trade" - the idea from the poll was about seeing if people agreed

itsnever2lateisit?

Of course we should up trade, trouble is GB wants China to buy more British bits and bobs, and China want us to buy more of their stuff (e.g. MG Cars;) )

Guess we could refloat HMS Victory, sail her up the Nanjing River and force them to buy heroin, after all our squaddies are back in the region it comes from:p

I have always found it a sweet irony that Britain ran a trade deficit with China until the 1st Opium War, and returned to deficit just before Hong Kong was returned

PrinceGaz

Although human-rights issues in China are of some concern, the fact is that it is only those people who stick their neck out and protest about things which they know will land them in big trouble, who get silenced.

Anyone who lives there knows if they start talking (or posting online) about the likes of Tibet, Tianemen Square, Falun Gong, or other contentious issues, that they will be stopped from doing so. If a citizen there decides to launch a crusade for a cause that is known to be cracked down upon, he is essentially expecting to be arrested as
a) his messages will be blocked by China's firewall very quickly
b) people will come knocking (or kicking) at his door soon afterwards, so that he can be taken somewhere to be re-educated so he learns the error of his ways

I enjoy the freedom we have here, but there are many worse countries than China around the world. Compared with Zimbabwe for instance, China would seem like paradise. North Korea and Burma are also much more restrictive. Many Middle Eastern states have rules on sexual orientation that could see me sent to jail or worse, but in China I wouldn't be breaking any law. I wouldn't be breaking the law in Israel either for that matter, so as much as I may despise their heavy-handed approach to neighbours they dislike, I'd rather seek asylum in Israel than live in true fear of my life in any of those neighbouring countries. On the one hand, Israel ignores repeated UN resolutions and uses its overwhelming military might on its neighbours. But on the other hand, they are better when it comes to human-rights of people living there. Politics is rarely an easy subject, and that brings us back to China.

Whilst China is far from perfect, there are many other countries I would focus on first where human rights are much more directly abused, so I cannot honestly be against them, especially when they are the most important economic power-house today, and will be essential to bringing a quick end to the recession. They're not exactly holding us to ransom, but China is the best chance of the recession ending sooner rather than later, and the human-rights issues in China are dwarfed by those of many other countries.