Ebay Seller Wont Supply VAT Invoice - Anyway Round This?

RFW

frivolous_fay wrote: »

No, I'm happy for you to be pedantic because I can't fully get my head round it.

VAT can't be added to ebay purchases (as used to be permitted) so does this mean we're buying zero-rated goods, then? I note that my PO receipts say they're not a VAT receipt - does that mean they don't charge VAT, or that they can't be arrassed to break it down?

"PO" meaning post office? That's another can of worms!
Post by Royal Mail and Parcelforce is not subject to VAT as they are government bodies, all other couriers charge VAT. However if (and I do) use a Parcelforce service that costs say £5, I have to issue it to my buyer at £5 plus VAT, ie £5.75, as I am not a government body and am essentially reselling the service as a registered VAT trader.

As VAT is included if you are buying from a VAT registered seller, if he sells something for £115, he only ultimately receives £100 from it. If a non VAT registered seller sells something for £115 he gets all the £115.

There is a difference at the buying end, as the VAT reg'd seller can claim back the VAT on purchase price and the non VAT reg'd seller cannot.

Zero rated goods (includes most books, baby clothing, non luxury foodstuffs, etc the definitions of non VATable goods can be bizarre) are sold without VAT and any seller whether VAT registered or not does not have to pay back any portion in VAT. To further confuse things, the postage of zero rated goods is also zero rated.

Not sure I made it any clearer but hope I did!

thelawnet

Tea3 wrote: »

Before bidding/buying I had several emailed conversations with the seller and specifically asked a couple of times if vat was included

You shouldn't have asked that question. All ebay auctions must include VAT if applicable.

The correct question was 'are you VAT registered'.

The seller clearly is NOT VAT registered, because has no idea what you are talking about.

Whether he should be registered or not is something you can estimate by looking at this completed auctions. If he is doing less than £6k/month, the answer is NO. If he is doing more than £6k/month, the answer is probably yes, unless his business is seasonal. In general a business should register for VAT when it realises that is likely to go over the VAT threshold over the next 12 months.

- one of the replies from him is posted higher up this thread and he clearly said that vat WAS included, therefore I paid more from him than from another seller as I would be able to claim vat back from hmrc thus making him cheaper. In three emails in total he mentions the vat being included and from his feedback response you can see he STILL believes vat is included in the price!

You are making the mistake of assuming that everybody on Ebay understands VAT law. They do not, and nor are they required to. If I buy something from Argos, decide I don't want it, stick it on ebay, and somebody asks me if VAT is included, my answer would be yes. I would say this because I assume you are asking if there is any more to pay - the answer would be no, everything is included.

If you had asked 'is your business registered for VAT?' the answer would be no.

But you did not ask this question. You should have done. Your own out of the ordinary requirements with regards to wanting to buy from a seller that is registered for VAT should have been established prior to sale.

It's plain to me that the seller is not VAT registered, and therefore is quite incapable of providing you with a VAT invoice. Whether or not he should be is something you can find out from Ebay.

Next time I recommend before you buy, that you ask the simple question 'Are you registered for VAT?'

The ebay 'invoice' provided says
1 pack @ £2.99
Post FREE
Adsjustments £116.61
Total £119.60

This is not only useless for vat purposes it is also useless as an invoice as the 'adjustment' of £116.61 could be for anything - postage, non vatable items like magazines etc - could also be for £116.61 of personal items I bought therefore cant even put it through the business accounts.

You are correct that the invoice is not ideal, but it seems that you have already paid it. In business one does not pay until one has received a valid invoice. It is too late to insist it be changed. You could have asked it to be changed to 40 @ £2.99, Postage free, Total = £119.60.

I emailed the seller many times to ask for the vat invoice and he STILL thinks he is vat registered because he pays VAT on his fees to ebay!!

He obviously doesn't understand VAT, unfortunate, but not necessarily wrong.

If you've reported him to HMRC, then they would likely offer him some help to understand this aspect of the law. They are quite understanding to small businesses.

As a powerseller I would expect him to know better and as a seller in general in the UK he should know the rules on vat or at least whether he is registered or not -please note that most of his items are wholesale items so he is selling alot to other businesses in which case many many vat registered people buying from him may have problems with this. I would NOT have left negative if he had responded to emails or tried to help sort this out or even held his hands up and said ' sorry i'm not vat registered I got mixed up' but he still claims to be including vat in the items which he is NOT. People are also paying him thinking that 15% is going to vat man when it is not (an offence to claim vat from people when not vat registered).

He's not claiming VAT from anybody. In fact it's against ebay's rules to do that. You're not allowed to charge VAT on ebay's auctions.

What would be breaking the law would be for him to issue the VAT invoice that you've asked for, which would allow you to reclaim VAT that hasn't be paid, because he's not VAT registered.

I think as he stopped responding, messed up the invoice, cost me over £100 I cant claim back as a business invoice, claimed to be vat registered when not and only paid fees on 1 item then yes he did deserve a neg, and as a seller myself (albeit not on ebay anymore) I dont easily give these out.

I would put these through the books myself. I've experienced HMRC audits where adequate receipts are not available. They've been understanding. Just put the invoice and other correspondence to explain what the 'adjustment' is into your files


My reading of the situation is that you've confused an otherwise reasonable seller with things he doesn't understand so much that he's ignoring you. Next time, ask for the VAT registration number before you buy. You can verify them here: http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/vies/vieshome.do?selectedLanguage=EN

Tea3

I asked many times about the vat before buying and although you may consider it out of the ordinary I think its common sense - if two sellers are selling for around the same price and one includes vat I can claim back then it works out cheaper than the other non-vat one - hence the reason I asked about vat (I only ask if one or more of the sellers is a business or powerseller and if there are more than one person around the same price) - he was a powerseller with thousands of sales so I assumed he would have some concept of how a business works even if not up on vat laws he surely must have heard of vat at somepoint and know what it is. I also asked for the invoice to be amended before I paid but he said he did not know how to do that on ebay now that he had issued it but not to worry as he would enclose a vat invoice showing the 40 packs purchased - I then paid assuming - according to his own words - that he would send me a vat invoice showing the 40 packs I purchased. I now have no vat invoice as it is clear he is not vat registered nor do I have a proper invoice. On hindisght asking if he was vat registered may have been a better question however as he still believes he is including vat in all purchases I very much suspect he would have said yes he is as he clearly has no clue about these things. He emailed me his 'equivalent' of a vat receipt as he said his bookkepper forgot to include the original in the parcel but its a lot of gobbledygook about ebay vat and luxembourg - he is very mixed up about vat and possibly should not be trading if he has no concept of this at all considering the vast amount of sales he has and that he has an actual non-ebay business also. I dont expect a non-vat registered person to understand it all - heck i'm registerred and dont know half of it, but if someone asked me prior to being registered if vat was included in something I would know the right answer to say.

Thinking back and re-reading his messages we are all assuming the seller is a bit dim or muddled about this but based on his replies he got me to buy 40 items from him at a higher price than another ebay seller, he only paid fees on 1 item instead of 40 and then ignored me asking, very calmly and politely, if I could have an invoice showing the 40 packs and not just the 1 (even if without the vat at this point after the sale) - so his paperwork shows he sold only the 1 pack! Please remember this is not joe bloggs off the street - this guy is a powerseller with an actual land based business also, selling to members of the public as well as to other business, selling thousands of different items with mutiple quantities on some so he is doing some trade - he may not be as stupid or misguided as assumed as he is the one with a £119 sale he would not have got had he answered correctly.

thelawnet

Tea3 wrote: »

I asked many times about the vat before buying and although you may consider it out of the ordinary I think its common sense - if two sellers are selling for around the same price and one includes vat I can claim back then it works out cheaper than the other non-vat one - hence the reason I asked about vat (I only ask if one or more of the sellers is a business or powerseller and if there are more than one person around the same price) - he was a powerseller with thousands of sales

Thousands of sales at £2.99 is not even close to the VAT threshold.

Tea3

Not everything they sell is £2.99 - they are actually not a budget shop - the items I bought were cheap items they had in the ebay shop. Most of their items range between £30-£50 a go.