Starbucks Closures. 300 Stores, 6700 Jobs - 2/3rds in the US. Business Down 69%

fc123

Cleaver wrote: »

Are you drunk?

I was waiting for you to respond to that.....got any better ones?

A_fiend_for_life

Reheated gegs? The Power of the Brand...on half power?

A_fiend_for_life

fc123 wrote: »

I got flamed for promoting Felicity Lawrences books by Starbuckman...then he deleted the post. Trust me, if you read her first, you won't go in Subway anymore.

:rotfl:

Again the Power of the Brand - they don't stick around.

Edit: I've set up a flippant remark 'swear' box. Two posts on the trot is not funny imho.

A_fiend_for_life

djm1972 wrote: »

oh gosh no worries.

Re: the welfare, it's a difficult one, complicated significantly by our position at the top of the food chain as a result of our very well developed intelligence, which I believe is what leads to conciousness.

I look at how other animals lower down the food chain treat the animals they they in turn feed on, and when you do this, you see brutality that perhaps isn't even on a scale of how we treat battery chickens, for example. I'm not convinced that anything below chimpanzee has a "sense of self" of anything approaching the level that we do, but I feel that many people translate our own experience of life to those of other animals - but if you extrapolate that you could say the same about bacteria and amoeba, yet I don't see any vegetarians refraining from washing their hands to avoid the unnecessary suffering of them.

It should also be noted that there are multiple food chains in existence. You only need to read up on the very sad reports of people who have ended up in lion enclosures at the zoo to appreciate how much respect a hungry lion has for a juicy human!

I guess that's heading really off-topic for this thread though...!

When you get so far down the animal kingdom there are fewer behaviours and expressions we can relate to and hence anthropomorphise so we wouldn't extrapolate that far. At least on a behavioural level.

OK in terms chimps there is mirror self-recognition and I'm not sure how much of this is down to enculturation as testing wild animals afaik wouldn't be conducted on ethical grounds. Same for the Polyanna test for 'Theory of Mind'. Some ethological studies look at behaviours such as social referencing and possibly deception as indicative of 'Theory of Mind' and hence a sense of self. I am sure there is plenty in the literature to say that we are still being anthropocentric in our views on what constitutes a sense of 'self'.

Marian Stamp Dawkins published a book in 1980 'Animal Suffering: The science of animal welfare'. Chapter 7 is worth a read on what environment animals prefer. There is no need to go as far back as designing A-B set ups as I'm sure many producers who are concerned about welfare look at envionmental enrichment for improving the welfare of their animals.

Lions - I see a Greg Larson cartoon with two depressed-looking lions. 'I'm really not happy with these battery humans - I much prefer the thrill of the hunt.'

zarazara

Poor chickens and battery hens, they deserve a decent life.

MORPH3US

Snooze wrote: »

First bit of good news I've seen for a while. :T

Rob

PS. don't bother with the guilt trip "what about the poor staff" replies because I don't care, so get over it. :rotfl:

IDIOT! :mad:

(for the record I don't give a ship about Starbucks closing, never go in the place but not caring about people losing their jobs shows what sort of person you really are!

lostinrates

A_fiend_for_life wrote: »

When you get so far down the animal kingdom there are fewer behaviours and expressions we can relate to and hence anthropomorphise so we wouldn't extrapolate that far. At least on a behavioural level.

OK in terms chimps there is mirror self-recognition and I'm not sure how much of this is down to enculturation as testing wild animals afaik wouldn't be conducted on ethical grounds. Same for the Polyanna test for 'Theory of Mind'. Some ethological studies look at behaviours such as social referencing and possibly deception as indicative of 'Theory of Mind' and hence a sense of self. I am sure there is plenty in the literature to say that we are still being anthropocentric in our views on what constitutes a sense of 'self'.

Marian Stamp Dawkins published a book in 1980 'Animal Suffering: The science of animal welfare'. Chapter 7 is worth a read on what environment animals prefer. There is no need to go as far back as designing A-B set ups as I'm sure many producers who are concerned about welfare look at envionmental enrichment for improving the welfare of their animals.

Lions - I see a Greg Larson cartoon with two depressed-looking lions. 'I'm really not happy with these battery humans - I much prefer the thrill of the hunt.'

Temple Grandins work is also very interesting and relevent.

I have a fairly major interest in animal behaviour ( relating not only to demonstrable behaviour but how that might relate to physiology, not just bunny cuddling). I am a committed meat eater and see myself as part of the food chain, albeit at the upper end:D . It mildly amuses me that in effort not to anthropomorphise we talk about 'us' and animals. 'Us' being what else?

I have met some rest with my concerns by eating animal produce that is 'ethically' produced, and eat meat with gusto but not daily.

I am somewhat with Cleaver on what counts as food, and on how nice it is to be able to disagree without vitriol.

A_fiend_for_life

Temple Gardin? That name rings a bell. I'll need to do a search on that name.

'animals and us' yes we're quite dedicated to separating ourselves from the animal kingdom. Maybe it loosly comes under 'anthropocentric'.

I'm still a meat eater myself though not as much as I used to be. I try to buy the best I can for my budget at the moment but unfortunalty have to compromise at the moment. Good thing about being on a budget is you tend to eat from lower down on the food pyramid.

Cleaver

fc123 wrote: »

I was waiting for you to respond to that.....got any better ones?

What I am, a performing seal?

lostinrates

A_fiend_for_life wrote: »

Temple Gardin? That name rings a bell. I'll need to do a search on that name.

'animals and us' yes we're quite dedicated to separating ourselves from the animal kingdom. Maybe it loosly comes under 'anthropocentric'.

I'm still a meat eater myself though not as much as I used to be. I try to buy the best I can for my budget at the moment but unfortunalty have to compromise at the moment. Good thing about being on a budget is you tend to eat from lower down on the food pyramid.

Just cos you seem nice I googled her for you I didn't know she had a website:o

http://www.templegrandin.com/templehome.html might also be interesting to Singlesue and Pastures, for other reasons :cool:

Budget is partly why we eat meat rarely. I'd rather buy ethical stuff less often. We like food that happens to be vegetarian, and we like cheaper cuts well cooked and that leave no bitter taste on the palate, so to speak, for non- fancy meals. . We keep chickens, which helps a bit.