Chip 'n pin: MoneySavingExpert.com discussion

MPH80

If it was not stolen then it cannot have been a chip & PIN transaction if the card was not present at the time of the transaction so must have been a signed for transaction.

Absolutely ... I just realised this when making a cup of tea.

Try this conversation on them:

You: "Was the transaction at the services done using the genuine card, with the genuine pin?"
Them: "Yes"
You: "Ok - were the transactions in France, several hundred miles away, done with the genuine card with the genuine pin?"
Them: "Yes"
You: "Ok ... if the system is foolproof - how is that possible?"
Them: "Errr ..."

:-)

M.

James

Does your statement say 'PIN verified' next to the disputed transaction?

I wonder if this is a 'Pay at The Pump,' terminal - if so it requires neither signature or PIN!

Your warned of liability shift here: Chip & PIN Friend or Foe:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/saving-and-banking/article.html?in_article_id=406675&in_page_id=7

And here's an example of what your experiencing:

The Great Chip & PIN Whitewash:
http://anmblog.typepad.com/this_is_money_blog/2006/02/the_great_chip_.html

Is there anything I can do:

Yep - get yourself Chip & Signature Debit Cards and Credit Cards.

Hint: If you require cash from ATMs use a banks own savings card.

You can always challenge a forged signature, but as you are experiencing challenging PIN misuse is another matter!

Juni_3

Have you noticed that in a lot of shops and petrol station the security camera points straight at the card machine?

King_Of_Fools

James wrote:

Does your statement say 'PIN verified' next to the disputed transaction?

I wonder if this is a 'Pay at The Pump,' terminal - if so it requires neither signature or PIN!

Your warned of liability shift here: Chip & PIN Friend or Foe:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/saving-and-banking/article.html?in_article_id=406675&in_page_id=7

And here's an example of what your experiencing:

The Great Chip & PIN Whitewash:
http://anmblog.typepad.com/this_is_money_blog/2006/02/the_great_chip_.html

Is there anything I can do:

Yep - get yourself Chip & Signature Debit Cards and Credit Cards.

Hint: If you require cash from ATMs use a banks own savings card.

You can always challenge a forged signature, but as you are experiencing challenging PIN misuse is another matter!

If this was a Pay@Pump transaction then you would have the same problem whether you had a PIN or signature card.

Chip & PIN cards are more secure for PIN transactions as they only way they can be used is if the actual card is present. However, any card can be cloned and used for a signature or non-signature transaction without a PIN.

James

If this was a Pay@Pump transaction then you would have the same problem whether you had a PIN or signature card.

Chip & PIN cards are more secure for PIN transactions as they only way they can be used is if the actual card is present. However, any card can be cloned and used for a signature or non-signature transaction without a PIN.
[quote/]

If you can confirm it was a Pay@Pump transaction then approach the retilailer and hold them responsible. I took this up with TESCO sometime ago and they assured me that if any type of fraud occured at a Pay@Pump terminal then they would bear the cost of the fraud.

Chip & PIN cards more secure for who? Chipped cards can still be cloned and used with a valid PIN at ATMs.

http://management.silicon.com/itdirector/0,39024673,39122813,00.htm

Can I draw you attention to the last paragraph.

King_Of_Fools

James wrote:

Chip & PIN cards more secure for who? Chipped cards can still be cloned and used with a valid PIN at ATMs.

Exactly, so can Chip & Signature cards. My point is that you cannot clone a C&P card and then perform a C&P transaction with the cloned card. All other non-C&P transactions carry the same liability to the cardholder whatever type of card they have.

regularsaver1

I checked at work with regard to C&S cards - we can only order them under request for those that are registered disabled ( can't ask that question)

if there is any other reason we can request but don't think that it will be accepted

Steevo25

I must admit, I really dont see C&P cards being anymore secure. In-fact I can see an open market for criminals.

Although a signiature can be forged, for most people this is not the easiest thing to do, a vigilant cashier should spot a least something. If they are not looking properly then thats not the fault of the genuine card holder.

A new crime will now be able to sweep the streets ( well not new but in a different way ), you will now not only be mugged for you card but your PIN number as well.

Before, if you were mugged for your PIN number then the most a thief could do was go to the cashpoint and draw out you maximum daily limit.

If it was a forged signiature then it was the bank/shops responsibility. Now a thief can mug you for your PIN number, go into a shop and spend on it right up to your bank balance or even beyond if you have overdraft facilities. The best part is that the bank now has no responsibility because you disclosed your PIN. At least with a signiature, if they went to 4 or 5 shops there would a chance that least one cashier would spot it.

A 4-digit PIN is a lot easier to use than trying to fake a signiature ( the PIN can be used straight away without practise ). The word in the banking world is that fraud has gone down since C&P started, but in actual fact, it just means that the banks have been RESPONSIBLE for less of the fraud that has gone on.

Signiatures can be faked, but it takes a little bit of practise. PIN numbers can used within seconds of obtaining them even for a thief that can't read or write.

Sitting here now, I know our first thoughts would be to cancel our cards if we were mugged for them, but after an ordeal like being mugged or even threatened with losing our life, it would probably take some time to get our heads back together before we got round to cancelling the cards. Goodbye bank balance!

James

WHICH? at last are addressing the liability issue:

"Our biggest concern is when banks refuse to look at the issue because they say if the pin was correct it's not fraud," says Naomi Newman, senior researcher at Which? "That's going against the Banking Code and the Consumer Credit Act, under which the onus is on them to prove gross negligence. Instead we're hearing about them saying that if the pin was known there's no need to regard it as fraud."

http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,,1705091,00.html mm

doogie

I was horrified to overhear a transaction at Tesco yesterday.... woman with chip-less card gave her card to the checkout operator:-

"You know you'll need a pin for this from next Tuesday?"
"I've spoken to my bank about it and they're not planning on issuing me a new card with a chip until March"
"Well, that's illegal, here have this leaflet, the government says we have to hand them out and you won't be able to use your card in here after next Tuesday"

Muppets!