Chip 'n pin: MoneySavingExpert.com discussion

MPH80

CopperPlate wrote:

Suppose there's something to be said for paying cash really and having a passbook account at your local bank...if there were any left

You'd only get people saying the banks should take the liability when they were mugged and their cash stolen ...

:rotfl:

Might make people take more care I suppose ...

James

Chip & Signature Cards - The only delay, is having to explain to shops staff that the card is Chip and Signature. Using C&S is certainly a lot quicker than waiting on someone getting their PIN (disguised, I hope) from their handbang, or getting it wrong and having to find another means of payment, Chip & PIN cards say no for an awful lot of cardholders and lulls many into a false sense of security putting them in a 'dangerous.' situation.

Millions Face Chip & PIN Trauma:
http://headlines.virgin.net/story/HHH/A5012311138376947A0

exil

Sorry - signatures can still be forged! Find a lost card, spend a couple of minutes practicing - and you can start spending.

Let's be rational about this.

Signature -

vulnerable to - staff not checking the sig
- card lost or stolen and sig forged by thief

PIN

vulnerable to - card stolen by someone who has found out your PIN

(that is, unlike sigs - doesn't apply to LOST cards - what are the chances of someone finding a lost card for someone whose PIN they know?)

So - both methods have drawbacks - but surely c&s has more of them!

The exception is, perhaps, those who can't remember their PIN. OK - but those people
will have problems with cash cards as it is, and c and s is supposedly still going to be an option. Just not, IMO, a very good one.

Answers

- change the card technology so you have 2 different PINs for cash and purchases
(stops the thief who knows your "purchase" PIN withdrawing cash - other than "cashback" of course)
- photo ID. Probably needs new technology to link the card to your ID. Ie the card is read, it is linked to a photo held by the bank, this is displayed to the cashier, who checks it against your photo ID. Or have a digitised photo on the credit card!

Basil_Fawlty

But this still leaves the flaw of people noticing your pin when you enter it at a shop. All they have to do is get your card. Easy really. I could have done this many times as every time I visit tesco I have the opportunity to spot someone's pin. Of course I always look away otherwise I could be accused of wilfully looking at it...

MPH80

spaceage wrote:

But this still leaves the flaw of people noticing your pin when you enter it at a shop. All they have to do is get your card. Easy really. I could have done this many times as every time I visit tesco I have the opportunity to spot someone's pin. Of course I always look away otherwise I could be accused of wilfully looking at it...

Of course it does - a bit of being careful will help people though - however the alternatives aren't much better:

Signature - will never get checked by staff - and here you just have to steal the card.

Photo on card - Same problem as signature - never will be checked

Photo on central system - requires all terminals to a) Be colour, b) be able to display more than just text and c) be online. We've had enough trouble getting people to go ahead with C&P let alone that!

Fingerprints - Firstly - everyone has to visit their bank to get their card to register their fingerprint. Second - if someone then injures the finger they've registered - they are locked out of the account. Third - good readers are very expensive (still) and a lot of stores own their own equipment for card processing.

Other biometrics - have proven unreliable in tests for the ID card ...

The most sensible thing I've heard suggested is seperate pins for cash points and purchases, so that if someone got to one - they couldn't do the other too. However, it wouldn't stop fraudulent activity - it just might limit it a little.

Your best option is to go with the highest security you have right now - which is the two level chip and pin (e.g. you have to have the card and know the pin to use it) rather than the one level chip and signature (where you only have to have the card - and 5 minutes to learn to fake the signature).

M.

CopperPlate_2

gizmoleeds wrote:

In my experience the majority of till operators do check signatures. As a signature will never be identical on two different occasions often staff will let them through if they have a little doubt though.

If photos were the main system, and retailers were responsible for covering fraudulent uses where the thief looks nothing like the cardholder then this system would work.

Having seen the photograph I had on my card there is little chance anyone could have identified me from it. Black and white, grainy and about half the size of a postage stamp - half the time the checkout operators wouldn't be able to see the photograph let alone recognise it as a human being. What about having the photograph on the card like the current account offered by Abbey

CP

James

Almost one-in-four consumers now feel more exposed and vulnerable when making a purchase following the introduction of PINs in place of signatures at the point-of-sale in the UK

http://www.finextra.com/fullstory.asp?id=14851

Firms Opt To Delay PIN Tills:

http://www.computing.co.uk/computing/news/2149567/firms-opt-delay-pin-tills

MalcolmE_2

My Nationwide Visa statement for last September shows clearly the dates when I was in France, with my wife. In the middle of the entries is one for Knutsford Motorway Service Station. They have sent me a copy of the transaction, dated for when we were away. Nationwide accept that the statement is evidence that we could not have made this transaction, but as the system is foolproof, we must have done. We pay. Will this happen to all of us? Is there anything I can do other than change card provider.

MPH80

MalcolmE wrote:

Nationwide accept that the statement is evidence that we could not have made this transaction, but as the system is foolproof, we must have done. We pay. Will this happen to all of us? Is there anything I can do other than change card provider.

Since this statement is blatently nonsense from them (e.g. you can't be in two places at once) and you can prove you were in France ...

Point out that THEY have to prove you acted fraudulently - if they still refuse to acknowledge it - threaten them with court action ... if they still refuse - do it!!!

M.

King_Of_Fools

MalcolmE wrote:

My Nationwide Visa statement for last September shows clearly the dates when I was in France, with my wife. In the middle of the entries is one for Knutsford Motorway Service Station. They have sent me a copy of the transaction, dated for when we were away. Nationwide accept that the statement is evidence that we could not have made this transaction, but as the system is foolproof, we must have done. We pay. Will this happen to all of us? Is there anything I can do other than change card provider.

Was your card stolen?

If it was not stolen then it cannot have been a chip & PIN transaction if the card was not present at the time of the transaction so must have been a signed for transaction.