Chip 'n pin: MoneySavingExpert.com discussion

exil

They had Chip and pin in France - FIFTEEN YEARS AGO.

The old signature system was undermined by shop staff not checking the signature.

There should be more effort put into making the pin machines more "discreet" - but if someone sees your number they still have to get hold of your card to make use of it. If you pick up a card in the street, or mug someone, you still don't know their pin. OK - you can force them to tell you - but then this is nothing to do with using chip and pin in a shop, since it can be done on cash machine cards!

The "voluntary check ID" idea wouldn't work as few people would voluntarily submit themselves to an ID check. A compulsory "check ID" would work - but would be extremely slow. It would be OK if we already carried ID cards as a matter of habit or if they were made compulsory - but that's a whole different debate.

Queenie

Gripe #1 - I have noticed that in recent times, the tills in some stores have now bolted down the machine and I'm not a happy chappy!

Previously I could swivel/turn the C&P machine around, cover the keypad with one hand and tap in the number with my other hand (having memorised the keypad position). On a good day, I could even slide it down the counter to suit myself!
Now though, the machine is fixed down right next to the perspex bit where you would normally sign cheques/cards/hand over your cash and there is very little room for putting my left hand round to sheild the keypad to "hide" my right hand doing the keypad boogie.

Gripe #2 - they need to standardise the keypads - just as keyboards are standardised QWERTY so should these silly C&P machines; thus making memorising positions far easier. Generally the numeric buttons are in the same place, but not so with the "Enter" button or it's size.

Protection is all well and good but they really do need to make it more "user friendly" before insisting on it's use!

*climbs down off soapbox and returns to accounts*

Edinburghlass_2

Twice in the past week I have been told by shopkeepers that I won't be able to use my switch card after 14 February as it isn't a chip and pin card. It is, however a photograph card.

Yesterday I argued the point with a shopkeeper that if my card doesn't have a chip I would still be able to use it. Not here I was told.

Strangely I was issued with a new card at the beginning of the month as I lost my old card. I asked would it be a chipped card and was told I would need to ask my branch for one I was also told that the new card would come with the same pin number on it, however I was then sent a new pin number, even more confusion.

I will be phoning my branch before 14 February as I cannot be without the use of the switch card and really don't want an arguement in every small shop I go into.

James

raa_thistle wrote:

I may be missing something, but how is someone seeing your pin and stealing the card any different from someone simply stealing the card, looking at the signature on the back of the card and then faking it? How is it safer to have the security device physically on the card than to have it seperate and the theif have to fluke seeing the pin?

Prof. Emily Finch recently published an article warning that crooks MOs had changed. They are targetting PINs, stealing or cloning cards and heading off to the first cash point (if its a cloned card) or either a cash point or a chip and PIN retailer if the card is genuine. The crook is never challenged, hence the greater attraction of a PIN operated card to a crook.

If a crooks decides to fake a signature they still have to eye-ball shops staff, and they can't get money from ATMs.

I really think card issuers should offer Chip, Photo and Signature cards, IMHO safer for ALL concerned! Until they do, I'll stick with Chip-and-Signature.

James

Just had to post this:

But people who are unable or unwilling to punch their security number into the console can apply for a chip and signature card - however they are running out of time to do so.


http://www.myfinances.co.uk/borrowing/credit-cards/credit-cards-general-use/apply-now-keep-signing-goods-$15142749.htm[url][/url]

exil

James wrote:

Prof. Emily Finch recently published an article warning that crooks MOs had changed. They are targetting PINs, stealing or cloning cards and heading off to the first cash point (if its a cloned card) or either a cash point or a chip and PIN retailer if the card is genuine. The crook is never challenged, hence the greater attraction of a PIN operated card to a crook.

If a crooks decides to fake a signature they still have to eye-ball shops staff, and they can't get money from ATMs.

I really think card issuers should offer Chip, Photo and Signature cards, IMHO safer for ALL concerned! Until they do, I'll stick with Chip-and-Signature.

Sorry, don't understand this point. If a crook steals a card - he still doesn't know the PIN. He DOES however know what the signature looks like.

Also, under the old signature system, shop staff were notorious for not checking the signature.

I agree with photo ID being used as a further safeguard - but many people are against being obliged to carry photo ID. (I'm not one of them)

Basil_Fawlty

exil wrote:

Sorry, don't understand this point. If a crook steals a card - he still doesn't know the PIN. He DOES however know what the signature looks like.

Also, under the old signature system, shop staff were notorious for not checking the signature.

I agree with photo ID being used as a further safeguard - but many people are against being obliged to carry photo ID. (I'm not one of them)

The crook will first spot the pin being entered on a keypad because not many people are discreet with this.

If shop staff don't check the signature then it's the shops liability to pay for fraud when the losses are uncovered.

I don't know why people are against carrying photo ID around - do they have something to hide?

James

Todays Financial Mail (Mail on Sunday) page 16:

Tesco challenged for accepting cards without the need for a signature or a PIN. Tesco response, ‘We see low levels of fraud in these areas.’ Tell that to the victims whose cards been used fraudulently and the time and money it takes victims to put things right. Do TESCO care – obviously not.

Chip & PIN
Sandra Quinn of the Association for Payment Clearing Services, which represents banks and card firms says: ‘There is no legal requirement for retailers to use chip and PIN but if there are gaps which criminals can exploit they are likely to do so.’

What do APACS say about TESCO? Can they do anything?

Retailers have a choice to use Chip and PIN or not, why then are PINs being forced onto many who just don’t feel safe with a PIN or can manage a PIN?

waterbaby

spaceage wrote:

I don't know why people are against carrying photo ID around - do they have something to hide?

It depends what type it is. I don't carry my driving license around because it's got my name, address, and date of birth on; if I am carrying my bank cards and my house keys, which I usually am, that's a lot of damage potential if it falls into the wrong hands.

If there's something I can carry that doesn't hand my life to an ID thief or a burglar, I am more than happy to carry it. (And it must be credit card sized!)

CopperPlate_2

The arguments for and against C&P are widely known. Banks don't want consumers to know about Chip and Signature cards because it (probably) keeps the liability for fraud with the banks and not the retailers as with C&P.

I had a photocard once - waste of time. The checkout operators didn't even bother to check the signature, let alone the photograph, and I've seen it happen that a woman in front of me has handed over her husbands card in error (he wasn't even there at the time) and the whole transaction has been processed and authorised and she was walking away from the checkout and putting the card back in her purse when she noticed. Hmmm. The card had Mr whatever-his-name-was on it.

The problem with introducing another layer of security - Chip, Signature AND PIN is the extra time it would take at tills - customers would complain, queues would be everywhere at busy times, and suddenly paying by any sort of card would make you a pariah. Suppose there's something to be said for paying cash really and having a passbook account at your local bank...if there were any left