Trains - Fare Evasion

Hintza

So you all would have trotted off to the ticket counter on arrival?

Somehow I don't think so.

If the train company can't be bothered to sort out collection of monies it is their loss. The only trouble is I don't know what you can do, probably just pay up when the fine arrives. But get your own back penalties you can claim for late trains etc.

Bad luck OP.

robt_2

Hintza wrote: »

So you all would have trotted off to the ticket counter on arrival?

Somehow I don't think so.

Personally? Yes. It would save me queuing later on in the day for the ticket for the journey home. For the £1.40 ticket the OP mentioned in a later post, it would only be around 10p difference between a single and a return. Even if I did not have morals and was not a thief, I would like to think that I would notice ticket inspectors and not ignore them, thinking I could just walk past.

Don't judge everyone elses standards by your own.

If the train company can't be bothered to sort out collection of monies it is their loss.

They are sorting it out - the are fining the OP. Not sure why you made that comment.

The only trouble is I don't know what you can do, probably just pay up when the fine arrives. But get your own back penalties you can claim for late trains etc.

Bad luck OP.

You can't claim for "10 minutes". But I agree in principle that you should claim when you can.

KingCheeseZombie

My partner got hit with a penalty fare in exactly the same circumstances - it's all very well saying that this person was bang to rights and the train companies are well within their rights to issue tickets after you have already passed through un-staffed ticket zones - where does their jurisdiction stop?

I have never come across a proper discussion on the actual application of the Penalty Fare rules by train staff - things like fines (including speeding/paking fines) can only stand up if they have been issued in accordance with the law and the associated processes - how many celebrities get off on technicalities? Everyone seems more than happy to chastise those who get caught out by this system - but most of the people that take the time to write about this issue are not those that persistently offend.

I agree that train passengers should pay (where they can purchase a ticket) for all train journey's they make - but I have never seen a case that has gone beyond the normal appeals process which I detail below:

1. Your first point of call is the Independent Appeals Service - you will have to write to them though as they don't seem to have telephone numbers. I found them extremely passive as they did not address the points I made.

2. If you get no joy there try Customer Focus (independent passenger focus group) who may back up your appeal.

3. The last port of call would be the Department for Transport who wrote the legislation and have the ultimate say as to whether it has/is being applied correctly by train companies.

If you appeal (1) you do not have to pay the fine until you receive an outcome of that appeal - if your appeal is rejected pay the fine and continue onto steps 2&3 otherwise you may incur further late payment penalties on top of your first fine should you lose the case.

Hope this is a little more helpful than previous posts.

robt_2

KingCheeseZombie wrote: »

My partner got hit with a penalty fare in exactly the same circumstances - it's all very well saying that this guy was bang to rights and the train companies are well within their rights to issue tickets after you have already passed through un-staffed ticket zones - where does their jurisdiction stop?

I have never come across a proper discussion on the actual application of the Penalty Fare rules by train staff - things like fines (including speeding/paking fines) can only stand up if they have been issued in accordance with the law and the associated processes. Everyone seems more than happy to chastise those who get caught out by this system - but most of the people that take the time to write about this issue are not those that persistently offend.

I agree that train passengers should pay (where they can purchase a ticket) for all train journey's they make - but I have never seen a case that has gone beyond the normal appeals process which I detail below:

1. Your first point of call is the Independent Appeals Service - you will have to write to them though as they don't seem to have telephone numbers. I found them extremely passive as they did not address the points I made.

2. If you get no joy there try Customer Focus (independent passenger focus group) who may back up your appeal.

3. The last port of call would be the Department for Transport who wrote the legislation and have the ultimate say as to whether it has/is being applied correctly by train companies.

If you appeal (1) you do not have to pay the fine until you receive an outcome of that appeal - if your appeal is rejected pay the fine and continue onto steps 2&3 otherwise you may incur further late payment penalties on top of your first fine should you lose the case.

Hope this is a little more helpful than previous posts.

If what the OP has said is all true, they were not travelling in a Penalty Fares area - which is why there appears to me more to it that what has been said.

Mutter_2

Don't know whether this counts as mitigating circumstances, but if a train employee is available to stop OP on leaving the station, why were'nt they at the barrier to collect fares instead? Or......
Could it be compared to no one at the pay desk in M&S, so the customer leaves with goods not paid for?
If that customer then says " I couldn't find a way to pay, so left with my goods", we all know the customer was wrong.

There is a station local to me where there's no facility to pay. Why not then just install a pay machine as in car parking? Seems simple enough.
The train companies want us to pay, but don't always provide the means.

As for paying and have to stand! Don't get me started on that dangerous practise.

There is information as to terms and conditions in this link; http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf
Only you know in to which category your station falls.
May I suggest that you get all info so as to be ready to present your case.
I hope you don't receive a fine, as I fully see the scenario. True fare dodgers deserve all that's coming.

As for mitigating circumstances, ponder this.
One of my children travelled for years to school by train.
Once, when I was waiting for her, she rang to say she was heading for an unknown station!!
She had been unable to alight due to bikes blocking her exit. She was then left at an unmanned station, deep in the countryside.
Thankfully all was OK, but had an Inspector been there would he have accepted her excuse, or demanded an excess fare?

angel00079

I must admit my first reaction would be that if the train company has not collected the fare that I would not bother to queue for 10 minutes to get a ticket for £1.40. On the other hand there is the arguement that you would not walk out of a shop with a £1.40 item if there was no shop assistant. Not quite sure that it is the same though because if there is no one in a shop you can just leave. You are not forced to find an assistant like the OP was forced to find a way to pay. I think that the issue here is that OP and probably a lot of other people (myself included) would not think that deeply about it. I doubt that the OP thought, 'Oh, goody I have saved £1.40'.

OP, depending on the conditions of the fine I would appeal or pay and request a refund if there was not time to appeal. If I got a fine and it was not very much I might be inclined to pay it and chalk it down to experience. Not very MSE I know but although inadvertently, rules were broken. If you did appeal I think that the fact you have paid for 2 or 3 years should have a bearing. Is it the type of station were the staff might recognise you?

Thanks OP for you post. If for any reason I travel by train and do not get a ticket on route I will go to the ticket desk. To be honest the only reason would be the risk of a fine. I think that there should be ways to pay for a ticket without the added inconvience. If you go into a shop it is easy to make a choice to leave because the quick is too long. The OP didn't know that when they got on the train that their fare would not be collected by a conductor or at the gate.

angel00079

I must admit my first reaction would be that if the train company has not collected the fare that I would not bother to queue for 10 minutes to get a ticket for £1.40. On the other hand there is the arguement that you would not walk out of a shop with a £1.40 item if there was no shop assistant. Not quite sure that it is the same though because if there is no one in a shop you can just leave. You are not forced to find an assistant like the OP was forced to find a way to pay. I think that the issue here is that OP and probably a lot of other people (myself included) would not think that deeply about it. I doubt that the OP thought, 'Oh, goody I have saved £1.40'.

OP, depending on the conditions of the fine I would appeal or pay and request a refund if there was not time to appeal. If I got a fine and it was not very much I might be inclined to pay it and chalk it down to experience. Not very MSE I know but although inadvertently, rules were broken. If you did appeal I think that the fact you have paid for 2 or 3 years should have a bearing. Is it the type of station were the staff might recognise you?

Thanks OP for you post. If for any reason I travel by train and do not get a ticket on route I will go to the ticket desk. To be honest the only reason would be the risk of a fine. I think that there should be ways to pay for a ticket without the added inconvience. If you go into a shop it is easy to make a choice to leave because the quick is too long. The OP didn't know that when they got on the train that their fare would not be collected by a conductor or at the gate.

lauraza

robt wrote: »

If what the OP has said is all true, they were not travelling in a Penalty Fares area - which is why there appears to me more to it that what has been said.

Like what?

lauraza

robt wrote: »

Personally? Yes. It would save me queuing later on in the day for the ticket for the journey home. For the £1.40 ticket the OP mentioned in a later post, it would only be around 10p difference between a single and a return. Even if I did not have morals and was not a thief, I would like to think that I would notice ticket inspectors and not ignore them, thinking I could just walk past.

Don't judge everyone elses standards by your own.



They are sorting it out - the are fining the OP. Not sure why you made that comment.


You can't claim for "10 minutes". But I agree in principle that you should claim when you can.

Well, I don't always return home via train anyway, and wasn't that day so I would not have been purchasing a return ticket anyway.

Also, as per my first post they have advised 'it is likely' that I will be fined, is this is not a confirmed as yet.

And your point as to simply walking past the ticket inspectors and ignoring them, there were none, that is the whole point!

I thought it was a very strange exercise in engaging several members of staff to do this, when these staff clearly could have manned the ticket gates or at least been on hand to inspect tickets at some point, as opposed to pouncing on unsuspected passengers. This is the first time I have ever seen the exits without any form of inspector, and the ticket gates unmanned. It seems quite a strange coincidence that this was the day that passengers were being stopped. It would have been much fairer to at least put up a clear sign telling passengers they must buy a ticket, if they decided not to staff the ticket gates.

Thank you for all the later posters, much appreciated.

KingCheeseZombie

lauraza wrote: »

Like what?

I think what the poster was referring to is the fact that you have not made it 100% clear where the ticket was issued - was it in a penalty fare area - which is normally on a train or the platform-side of the train station?

Arguably, if you had passed beyond the barriers and where in a non-penalty fare area (ie. outside the station) they shouldn't be able to issue you with a ticket as they should have been manning the ticket barriers.

Again - this comes back to the point I made in a previous post about where does the jurisdiction for issuing tickets stop - are they entitled to follow you down the street until they catch you?! They are not the police and must surely have much more limitations to their powers than they/we think.