Unenforceable Credit Agreements

PROLIANT

Supercharge_Me wrote: »

Hi Angie,

Im looking for some advice, how did you go about getting the credit card without signing anything? Im looking at buying a new Plasma, 3 piece suite and a new kitchen but i dont want to have to pay for it, which company are you with? im hoping to do the same as you

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :beer: ROFLPSMYSL

bert&ernie

angiemax28 wrote: »

Hi,
I sent out a letter to a couple of my credit card companies that I dont like (have just reduced credit limits etc with no warning!) asking for a 'true copy of the credit agreement etc' (I used an excellent template to do this) this is the letter I have got back from capital one. Please can anybody tell me what to do next as I am confused. My husband sent one to mint and they have returned a copy of his original signed copy from 11 years ago.

Thank you for your letter requesting copy documents for your account.

You requested cipies of the executed credit agreement and a statement of your account under section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.The status of your account as at the date of this letter, is currently open and active and up to date.

Blah blah blah.

then the next letter is a copy of ' credit card agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974'
It is unsigned.

Firstly I asked for a true copy and they just mention copies...
The document is unsigned, does this mean I can go ahead and say that the account is unenforceable - and if so, how do I do that?

I read somewhere that the true copy does not need to be signed, so how do I know if this account is unenforceable or not??

Any help please would be really really appreciated
Angie

You may have noticed that you have hit a nerve with the locals. They dont care whether or not the agreement is enforceable, because they believe that you have a moral obligation to repay the money. The fact that the lender has a legal obligations regarding the form and content of its paperwork isn't important to them.

I believe its up to you to decide if you have a moral obligation to your creditors. The practical question is what obligation you have in law. This is an altogether different matter and I wouldn't expect a great deal of constructive advice on this board. I would advise you to look at the forums at the Consumer Action Group.

PROLIANT

Hey Bert, hows things?

bert&ernie

PROLIANT wrote: »

Hey Bert, hows things?

Not bad mate.

How about you - how are the new year resolutions going? I gave up smoking about 5 years ago, but started again (albeit only after a few beers) about a year ago. Wish I'd never started, but not sure if I really want to give it up again.

Whats the enterprise that you are starting?

btw, I loved you latest analogy "It’s a bit like humping somebody else’s wife then kicking the shat out of the betrayed husband".

B&E

bert&ernie

loaner wrote: »

If you had lent the money instead, would you be happy for the borrower to wriggle out of repayment on a technicality? Same moral dilemma, different face.Taxpayers are keeping the banks solvent, we are all the losers when people who can pay, don't

I don't have a consumer credit licence, so I don't lend to to people on a commercial basis.

If I lend my mate a tenner, I expect to get it back - its an informal arrangement where I consider our friendship to be the security. If I was stupid enough to lend a perfect stranger some money without making sure I was legally entitled to recover the money, then more fool me.

bert&ernie

loaner wrote: »

Commercial basis has nothing to do with morals. If you borrowed 10k from your friend, would you feel morally obliged to pay it back?

Probably yes. Do you consider your bank to be your friend? If you do, then I think you should get out more.

wbacon8670

I have recently heard if the credit card company you signed a contract with cannot prove this, i.e do not have a copy of the agreement, then they have no legal grounds to enforce repayments of your credit card debts. can anyone shed some light on this for me?

simon_templar_2

There are a lot of threads on this subject if you look further down the board. Are you one of those people who max out their card spending the money on holidays abroad, plasma tvs, designer clothes etc then decide i dont want to pay this back and so get all that for free?

GoFigure

This thread has certainly polarised the membership on MSE. There appear to be three camps - those who will never use this process and will go bankrupt first, those who see it as legitimate, and the floating voters who probably are lurking for fear of getting flamed!

I am a debt adviser by profession and I certainly have seen the hopes of debtors eroded over the past few years. The creation of The Insolvency Exchange (Tix) has meant that consumer IVAs are no longer about paying back what you can afford over 5 years, (making a comparison with the potential dividend in bankruptcy), it is now about hurdle rates and paying sufficent pence in the pound to satisfy the majority creditors. People are often having to turn to bankruptcy despite reasonable IVA proposals being made.

I have seen the abandomnent of the proposed legislation on SIVAs (Simplified IVAs) where people with smaller levels of debt could have entered into an IVA without creditor consent. This would have enabled a lot of smaller debt cases to have gone through unchallenged, freeing up a lot of the advice sector and enabling debtors to repay their creditors what they could afford. Who lobbied the government to have this important easement withdrawn?

I have seen irresponsible lending on a massive scale, one debtor last year for example was a retired man on a £15k pa pension with 15 separate credit agreements owing £105,000. Was it justified for provider no.10,11,12 to lend him more money when he was already clearly in difficulties?

Lately some unsecured creditors have taken to seeking charging orders against people's houses, or issuing a Statutory Demand (forerunner to bankruptcy) for debts as little as £1800. A sledgehammer to crack a nut, and extremely costly to the debtor to defend/resolve.

Like many of you I have also experienced through clients the pressure applied to them by some of their creditors - unwarranted harrassment driving some people to suffer unnecessary stress or worse.

On top of all this it would now appear that some card and loan providers have not adhered to the CCA - legislation created to protect you and me against unfair lending practices.

To counter-balance this argument I concede that yes, I have seen many examples of careless borrowing, reckless borrowing, dishonest borrowing, every type of borrowing under the sun which you or I might not indulge in but for whatever reason individual debtors felt motivated to do at the time.

My philosophy is this - in the vast majority of cases it is the debtor who needs my help, not the creditor. Credit card companies have huge resources to collect their debts; lawyers, debt collection firms, the courts, a strong lobby in government etc. Most debtors have virtually nothing, apart from perhaps a bit of equity in their homes. When I advise them I try my best not to sit in judgement on them as to why they have got to where they are today, my job is to help them find a solution to their debts, and hopefully a fair solution can be arrived at which is equitable to both them and their creditors.

The credit card claims process is a legal one, widely available and from anecdotal evidence is working for many people. As a debt adviser I feel that I must make people aware that it is available to them, as to not do so could potentially disadvantage them and make the difference between solvency and bankrupty, or between keeping a roof over their heads and repossession.

I also feel that the law is there to protect the consumer, and to deny people the right to challenge the card providers is to deny them their civil liberties. Ultimately I feel that the possible outcome of these claims will also mean that the card providers will have to be a bit more meticulous about their lending practices in future.

In the US Barack Obama's manifesto included his support for a 'Credit Card Holder Bill Of Rights' to challenge the various federal laws which govern card provision in the US. In (arguably) the world's most developed economy the consumer lobby still has huge issues with the way credit card companies conduct their business, and being on the side of reform helped win Obama the election. Can we be so complacent as to think our own credit industry might not have similar flaws?

I'm certainly going to try and do some research on the subject to try and find out more.

withnell

Looking at the response, it would suggest that Cap 1 sent a copy of the credit agreement so the OP could see the terms etc - I have a copy they sent me after I applied for my card.

Question for the OP: did you specify "signed copy" when you requested the info? Did you apply online and sign the agreement electonically? (I think for my cap 1 I ticked a box on their website)