'1731, 2033, 9854' blog discussion

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  • okay79okay79 Forumite
    52 Posts
    Great comeback Dizie!
  • DizieDizie Forumite
    70 Posts
    jagu wrote: »
    Let's have some evidence.

    This happened to my boss one lunch time. She paid by debit card in M&S and as she left the store her bag was snatched. By the time she got back to the office to call the bank (15 min walk) £500 had been taken from a cash machine and a £700 TV bought from Dixons.
  • MSE_MartinMSE_Martin MoneySaving Expert
    8.3K Posts
    ✭✭✭✭
    jagu wrote: »
    Let's be realistic about this. How many cases can anyone quote where this has happened? Just because we can imagine it happening doesn't mean it's a real risk.

    You say "One more common form of card crime is watching the pin number then mugging someone for the card once they know the number". How common exactly? Let's have some evidence.

    Rather than quoting stats. Sadly it happened quite recently to a friend of mine. That's one too many.
    Martin Lewis, Money Saving Expert.
    Please note, answers don't constitute financial advice, it is based on generalised journalistic research. Always ensure any decision is made with regards to your own individual circumstance.
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  • jagujagu Forumite
    25 Posts
    MSE_Martin wrote: »
    Rather than quoting stats. Sadly it happened quite recently to a friend of mine. That's one too many.

    If you say "it's one of the more common forms of card crime", two questions follow. Firstly, is that statement actually supported by evidence? Secondly, if it is one of the more common, is it common enough to be a problem? I trust what I read on MSE and I want to continue doing so. I don't like to feel that anecdotes are being presented as indicators of big problems if they aren't. Reading the points people have made in this dicussion thread you could make out that women are the only ones at risk :)

    By far the most important point raised in this thread, for me, is that card companies won't refund your money if you inadvertantly let someone see your PIN, if it's true. This would be really useful to have confirmed and all other arguments would become moot.
  • Morty_007Morty_007 Forumite
    1.5K Posts
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    Why do you need evidence? All Martin is trying to do is highlight that this is a risk and give people a defence against it! Does itreally matter if it's HIGHLY risky? If you don't like the advice you don't have to take it. I can't imagine it should make your faith in the site falter...

    I always cover my PIN and TBH have never noticed anyone giving me funny looks about doing so.
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  • I usually hold my wallet covering the keypad from the left, and put my fingers over the top 3 numbers. This sometimes means I push a wrong key, but although I've never done it on purpose, it does occur to me that the extra couple of keypresses to cancel the last number or clear the pin number to start again would make it a lot harder to monitor which numbers have been pressed correctly. I've thought about fluffing it on purpose so I'd routinely do 6 or 7 keypresses just to confuse a would-be thief.
  • Hmm, this raised another (I think valid) point in the case of card fraud: I wonder if the first person of the 3 Martin watched was 77 years old and the third was 54 years old? I used to work for a high street bank and it always amazed me that banks actually RECOMMENDED that you change the number to something meaningful to you - lots and lots of people use their date of birth or their partner's date of birth as a pin number (no matter how many times you told them you didn't need to know, and you couldn't look it up on the computer, customers would insist on telling the counter staff their pin if they came in asking a card question!)

    In terms of level of risk I'm not sure that it's as huge a risk as the one that Martin has pointed out, but I can remember it happening once - a lady thought she'd lost her card, turned out it had been taken by a family member who had very easily worked out her pin! Probably a once in a blue moon situation, but it's the reason why my cards keep the random pin number they're allocated - I would never change it unless I thought it had been compromised, which incidentally is what your card provider would tell you to do straight away if you even remotely suspected the moneysavingexpert.com journalist had been standing behind you in a queue last night and may have witnessed your pin!
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  • jagu wrote: »
    Let's be realistic about this. How many cases can anyone quote where this has happened? Just because we can imagine it happening doesn't mean it's a real risk.

    You say "One more common form of card crime is watching the pin number then mugging someone for the card once they know the number". How common exactly? Let's have some evidence.

    For goodness sake!

    Martin is just highlighting a *potentially* serious and dangerous issue that is easily fixed. He's telling people to cover up their PIN when they enter it.

    It doesn't matter if this is a MAJOR common problem or if it's just a potential problem, the fix is easy and straightforward.

    Why are you being so antagonistic? After all the good MSE has done, I'm sick of seeing posts like yours where Martin gets jumped on and criticised for trying to HELP PEOPLE!!
    DFW Official Nerd Club #1114
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  • jagu wrote: »

    By far the most important point raised in this thread, for me, is that card companies won't refund your money if you inadvertantly let someone see your PIN, if it's true. This would be really useful to have confirmed and all other arguments would become moot.

    A less angry reply to this one.. (lol)

    It was posted only a few weeks ago on the MSE 'Credit Card' forum. If you think about it, the newest type of insurance CC companies are pushing is 'fraud insurance', which has always seemed to me to be a completely useless insurance because if you're genuinely a victim of fraud, the card company surely have an obligation not to force you to pay a bill that's not yours. So why have insurance against it? I can see them changing T&Cs to say, 'we won't refund fraudulent charges unless you have our insurance' sort-of thing.

    Chip & Pin seems to give them a get-out clause, because you sign a contract saying you are responsible for ensuring you're the only person who knows the PIN.

    If someone uses your card at an ATM to withdraw cash, they must know the PIN, therefore you must have either told them it or been careless when entering it, allowing them to see. So you are liable for any transactions they make using the PIN.

    I am a bit cynical but don't think it's unrealistic that this might be the future. Makes me sick!
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  • MSE_Martin wrote: »
    Rather than quoting stats. Sadly it happened quite recently to a friend of mine. That's one too many.

    Thanks for highlighting this Martin.

    It is potentially a very serious issue - being mugged (a physical crime) could be incredibly traumatic.

    I know some people have poo-pooed the 'risk' of this happening, but the fact is, if it *does* happen it could have a bigger impact on someone's life than a £35 bank charge or an unfair parking ticket... (not to dismiss the impact of such things of course, but can you see what I'm getting at?)
    DFW Official Nerd Club #1114
    'Proud To Be Dealing With My Debts':cool:
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