building regs, planning permission, listed building consents (sorry for long post)

halia

Hi all, hope someone clever can help me out with this.

I'm renovating a grade II listed building and I've got into an awful muddle about what set of permissions I need to apply for. I have asked on a specialist period/listed property forum but they kept saying I had to talk to planning locally. I'm willing to do this but I'd really like to get an idea for the types of things I need to apply for first before I go in and get on the wrong side of planning/conservation by sounding really naive!

Also my local planning office is incredibly difficult to get through to - I've been trying since early december to talk to someone in person and havn't managed it yet!


As I said its grade II listed - now I know that there is no such thing as just listing the 'facade' of the building but in this case the house isn't listed as a building in its own right, the listing is about 10 lines decribing the front of the whole block of houses - none of the interiors were inspected and neither were the back of the houses.

OK, legally speaking that means they have listed stuff inside the buildings as it was in the 1970's - but this confuses me as how on earth do they know what was inside the buildings then? Because of the structure of the overall block none of the houses have internal structural walls, they are all just stud/brick parition walls. (confirmed by a structural surveyor) Each house (have visted neighbours) seems to have a different layout and several houses have taken out ground floor walls to make open plan roms (no planning permissions etc ever applied for)

So from this you'll probably guess that one of the things I want to do is move/remove internal walls. I want an open plan downstairs and to move one of the walls between bedroom and bathroom upstairs, plus add a stud partition to create a mini home office space.

I'd really appreciate someone giving me an idea of whether I need building regs, PP, LBC (any or all) for these. I guess I'd also like input on what risk I'm really running in just shifting the internal (non load bearing walls) like the next door neighbours have?

(I've highlighted what I think I need to apply for!)

So on with the list:
Remove internal non-loadbearing wall downstairs
Build half height partition to screen opne plan kitchen
Move internal stud wall between bathroom and bedroom (lg bathroom small bedroom - want the extra space in bedroom!)
Create new door opening into bathroom BR
Build stud partition in largest bedroom to create a small home office (will have its own window and door from exisitng openings)

Dig up floor, lay substrate, lay DPC, lay underfloor heating, lay flagstones or timber floor BR
(we have a packed earth floor at the rear of the house obviuosly no DPC and very very cold!)

Put in kitchen, this involves moving sink wastes BR to a different room which will need to discharge in pipies under the floor to the back of the house (actually there isn't a kitchen at the moment, there is a sink and a electric cooker both in a 1930's lean to!)

replace bathroom suite (more or less same layout)

put in new shower (over bath)

put in new shower cubicle (in bathroom) BR

Renovate and repair existing reproduction Sash windows (inserted in 1980's with no PP??? replaced timber casement windows)

rewire house BR

install central heating run from multifuel burning stove BR

Install stove and back boiler including flue pipe to discharge through cimney stack. BR LBC

several options on this bit .............. we'd like to go for option d) as in total we get about 30ftsq of additional space (in a house less than 1000ft sq thats quite a bit!) but we realise thats pretty ambitous

a) Open out closed off fireplaces to orginal builders openings
b) extend builders openings to fit in cooker/storage etc into chimney breasts. (inserting new lintels for structural stability) BR LBC
c) Remove chimney breasts entirely from ground floor to loft in back two rooms, inserting gallows brackets for additional support to front flue/chimney breast. BR PP LBC (smallest rooms which have no need of open fires -ones a bathroom!)
d) Remove all chimney breasts in house, inserting RSJ in loft to support neighbours stack and retaining external chimney stack. BR PP LBC


Remove existing concrete block extension LBC
Insert french doors into wide opening that used to lead to extension BR LBC

Insulate and Board loft for use as light storage.
widen exisiting teeny tiny loft hatch BR (at the moment anyone over a size 8 can't fit through it!)

Fit new front door LBC

(replaster walls, fit new lights, lay carpet, paint walls I'm assuming I don't need to ask anyone about?)

pleeeeease help - I feel like I'm going mad here!

ormus

re grade 2 listed buildings. first thing is that virtually any external changes are out.
internal changes are possible. but items such as removing chimneys/fireplaces is almost certainly out.
doors, staircases, woodwork and any plasterwork changes are also not on.
removal of some walls are usually ok, with permission. depends on your local council. some are better/worse than others.
basically the whole PP system is a mess.

thats why some peeps just do the work and sort out any PP problems later on. (if they arise).

sad_dog_lady

chimney stack may require party wall notice if u are removing.

Doozergirl

You will deal with a Conservation Officer, not a Planning Officer and essentially they will decide what they will allow you to do.

The best thing is to walk them around the house before you draw out any plans so that you can discuss what you want to do. If you are knocking down part of the building then I don't see you have any choice but to contact them.

You will find that each conservation officer has their own idea about what should be kept and what not. It's pretty frustrating but I think you have to be aware when you take on a listed building that it isn't going to be like knocking about a regular house. They may well say no.

We were allowed to knock down a decrepit kitchen/bathroom extension but the replacement needed to look like part of the house. Our neighbours, on the other hand were told they had to build a modern extension! We weren't allowed to remove a wall added in the early Victorian period, between two bedrooms but we were allowed to remove the wattle and daub from between the original beamed wall downstairs (couldn't do that in the end as it had become integral to the structure after 400 years!) The original windows were all different but they decided on a copy of a set of 1930s windows in a front extension.

There's no reason or rhyme to it at all. Planning permission and Listed Building Consent aren't exactly the same thing in your case as you won't be given straightforward PP - it has to be LBC. Also, the fact that it is listed means that changes made to the building to keep it 'in keeping' mean that you don't actually have to have Building Regulations Approval for all things - the Fact that it is Listed over-rules much of it, not all and you can guarantee that The Building Control Officer will cause ructions as well.

You're right, if they haven't listed what is inside, they may not know what is inside but major work to the house will alert people to what you are doing and it's likely they will appear. We had someone turn up because we hadn't cleaned lime mortar off some of the repointing (honestly, they got to choose the colour of the mortar, they are that picky and we had to create umpteen mock-up windows at great cost before they finally passed one). Be aware that you can also replace like with like, so if someone has stuck up plastic guttering over the years and the Conservation officer is telling you that you need Iron stuff, you can argue 'like with like' - it won't always work and sometimes you have to compromise in order to get other stuff passed.

Your Listed Building Consent will cover anything from repointing to knocking that new bathroom wall through - any structural changes at all need to be run past them. They really will prefer you being naive and asking them right at the start and encouraging debate than just submitting plans without a nod first to them and their experience (:rolleyes:)

There's not a chance they will let you remove every chimney breast in the house and you will need building regs for all that work if you ever want to be able to sell it! They will talk to each other.

BB1984

I've done worked on a few Listed buildings in my job.

You'll need LPC for ANYTHING that in any way alters the "character" of the building. You probably won't be allowed to do anything to the exterior, unless you can successfully argue that you are improving the building in some way other than aesthetically. As it's Grade II as opposed to a higher level, you should be able to do many of the alterations you're proposing, but nothing that could be seen to diminish the building's character. Unfortunately, this is very subjective and that's why your number one job is to become best friends with your local Conservation Officer! I've met very good ones, who are willing to put time and effort into understanding the nature of proposals, and ones who point-blank refuse to accept anything! Definately approach them asap as they will appreciate you consulting them from early on in the project, and will probably be more helpful that way. As I think someone else mentioned, COs vary in their approach to alterations - some like the alterations to blend in to the original as much as possible, whilst others like alterations to be very obvious, so you can easily identify the changes that have been made to the building. The other thing is that more recent alterations (e.g. Seventies horrors) are often subject to the Listing too, by association. So you can't assume that you can remove anything that isn't original - even if it is horrible! Again, depends on the CO.

Building Regs is different as they don't really about the building being listed, only that any new additions meet current building regs. The interesting bit comes when they decide that you need to alter things to meet the modern regs, but the Conservation Officer wants it kept as is!

BB

LadyinBlack_2

Advice wise I agree with the above and would add that your relationship with your Conservation Officer is crucial. Their approach varies a lot even within the same Authority. Do your best to get on with them as they have a lot of power.
Our LA has three COs and we discovered that two are to be avoided and one is very good (i.e. willing to listen and compromise where possible). Luckily, we talked to our neighbours before contacting the department and found this out.
Best advice we ever had - saved us a huge amount of grief. We then wangled it so that we got the nice man.
Good luck (and have a lot of patience)
PS do you have an architect?

halia

Trying to get hold of my CO - hasn't returned any of my phone calls in the past 4 weeks so its a bit difficult!

Unfortunatly we only have the one CO and every time I've mentioned him everyone starts looking glum and shaking their heads!

Just to try and get this straight - is the general feeling that a non original partition stud wall is part of the 'character' of the building and therefore needs LBC to remove/change?

Doozergirl

I'd say so, yes.

It's about the building's history - all of it. From the original through to subsequent changes made, not to say that some of them can't be undone.

The story of your CO is familiar to me. We waited so long for LBC because the council didn't even employ a CO!; it was supposed to be 12 weeks max by law - 7 months later my husband called to say that we'd had enough of waiting (this was our home and we were living in temporary accommodation because it was completely uninhabitable when we bought it) so we were commencing digging up the floors and if they had an opinion on that, they would need to come out and see it. They were out within days and the LBC hit the doormat very soon after.

Somerset

halia wrote: »

Trying to get hold of my CO - hasn't returned any of my phone calls in the past 4 weeks so its a bit difficult!

Unfortunatly we only have the one CO and every time I've mentioned him everyone starts looking glum and shaking their heads!

Just to try and get this straight - is the general feeling that a non original partition stud wall is part of the 'character' of the building and therefore needs LBC to remove/change?

I too was advised to ''talk to my CO ...''. I started off wanting to do the right thing, by the book etc - well it's a hell of a learning curve. Our Council only has the one CO, and I got the head shakes from the locals too, can't be that bad I thought - wrong !!. There's no rhyme or reason, no consistency, my CO said no consent needed one day then consent needed next day - constant mind changing, plus impossible to get these or any statements confirmed in writing.

I asked my CO at first site visit, pre any application, just 'feeling' out what was possible, whether he had any advice/preference re damp-proofing solutions - he said ''it's an old house, people just have to live with the damp - I would strongly advise against any damp-proof works'' - I kid you not.

Forget the 'character of the building' - it's misleading. You need consent full stop. I took down '90's stud walls to change lay-out, but needed LBC to do it. Incidentally these stud walls didn't have LBC to be there in the first place, but still needed LBC for me to remove - you getting the idea how insane this can become ? Maybe a better example came from my surveyor ( who I brought on-board because I was pulling my hair out ) - he had to apply for LBC for a different client to remove a 1970's tiled gas fire, which had an original inglenook behind it.

bambammy

You could renovate, but that's only going to be worth it if the wood is not decayed.

If it is, in a few years time they will need replaced.

You won't have to replace the glass, the ones you have just now can be reused.


quote: Renovate and repair existing reproduction Sash windows (inserted in 1980's with no PP??? replaced timber casement windows)