Fantastic comment piece from the Times on the giveaway to mortgage holders

HammersFan

carolt wrote: »

And I trust, Really2, that you, as a fervent supporter of the rights of the hard-done-by working classes against the greedy middle classes, as above, agree as I do with the main thrust of the article, (highlighted above for your assistance), that the mortgage cuts for the overstretched middle classes was a shocking waste of public money?

I dunno Carol it all depends upon your point of view. The cuts are great news for me - I can pay off my mortgage more quickly - I'd find it hard to be upset about that. If mortgage payers drive big parts of the economy then maybehelping them out is a good idea all round . Also, the cuts in BTL'ers mortgages mean that more tax goes into government coffers from the increase in taxable profits on the BTL rent.

neverdespairgirl

kennyboy66 wrote: »

Equally a student from a public school is more likely to get into one of the top universites than a student from a poor background with equal grades.

Is that true?

mean_momma

catriona79 wrote: »

."..... informed middle class patients are better able to enter and navigate the system. They are also more likely to discuss and debate their treatment options with doctors and push for their preference more forcefully. ......."
http://www.egovmonitor.com/node/20387

Well now you don't need to be born into the educated classes to become 'informed'. The motivated just have to go down to the library and gain instant info via the Internet. 'Dr Copperfield' from the Times magazine has written various funny articles about what appear to be working class patients coming into the surgery with huge print outs from Google. Whether they can then put up an argument for better treatment remains to be seen!

Guy_Montag

neverdespairgirl wrote: »

Is that true?

I wouldn't be surprised, I went to a relatively cheap independent school where those expected to get the grades to go to oxbridge were groomed for the selection process. So each year 4-5 pupils would expect to go on to oxbridge. Because this happened regularly the teacher running it would know which colleges to apply for (aiui some like engineers, some like Scots or whatever); what the current selection criteria were & so forth.

Compare this to the school my dad taught in which probably had a similar, though somewhat broader, socio-economic makeup. There perhaps one pupil every two years would go on to oxbridge - this meant there was no continuity in the application supervision, so the teacher running it didn't know how best to form the application for the pupil.

Generali

Guy_Montag wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised, I went to a relatively cheap independent school where those expected to get the grades to go to oxbridge were groomed for the selection process. So each year 4-5 pupils would expect to go on to oxbridge. Because this happened regularly the teacher running it would know which colleges to apply for (aiui some like engineers, some like Scots or whatever); what the current selection criteria were & so forth.

Compare this to the school my dad taught in which probably had a similar, though somewhat broader, socio-economic makeup. There perhaps one pupil every two years would go on to oxbridge - this meant there was no continuity in the application supervision, so the teacher running it didn't know how best to form the application for the pupil.

This sort of thing is a big part of why we've emigrated. As the hedge fund thing hasn't paid off, I'm unlikely to be in the very highest income bracket. As a result I will be unable to buy privilege for my kids and so I would rather live somewhere more egalitarian.

Of course this sort of thing happens the world over but the UK is the only country I can think of that has based a society on that happening.

kennyboy66_2

neverdespairgirl wrote: »

Is that true?

I will try and find a link, but the research was done by Warwick Business School and is fairly recent (last 6 years).

As Guy Montag says, it is probably because independent schools are better at coaching students at passing A levels.

Can't find the original report but there is this;

http://www.suttontrust.com/reports/entryToLeadingUnis.pdf


"Additionally this study has documented evidence that a student from a below-average performing school can be accepted with lower A-level grades (by two or three points) and get a degree as good as, or better than, the student who comes from a high performing school."

"Year by year, Oxford admits more applicants
from the independent sector than from the
maintained, although the latter group contains
approximately two thirds of those school leavers
who obtain the highest A-level grades. Fairness
to applicants and fulfilment of the University’s
mission alike suggests that the proportion of
applicants accepted should be closer to the ratio
of high grades at A-level, one third independent
school pupils to two thirds maintained."

However, whenever it is suggested that access is widened, the likes of the Telegraph will scream "dumbing down" - where the actual evidence suggests that Oxford misses out on talent students because of the way they select.

Peter Lampl who started the Sutton Trust one of the unsung heroes of today.

lostinrates

I went to a private school and opted for a 'less good' uni on the basis of the scientific content of the course (the course was at its time the best in th country, I think since over taken by anothr university in content, but still maintains highest number of both applicants and graduates in my subject I think.) Dh was educated in state school (briefly in the UK, then predominantly in Italy) and got into one of the 'best' colleges in one of the Best universities in the world. His father had been involved heavily with the university and the college with which he was most strngly associated refused applications from DH and both his siblings, exactly so that it was not perceived as nepotism.

While there were, among DH's closets chums, a fairly equal cross section of private/public and state students I would say th notable difference was that the private/publically educatd people had school friends with thm, the state ones often started friendships from scratch.

Contrary to Generali's feelings, my experiene has ben different, UK is NOT the only country where this happens by a long stretch (as he says), but in fact in many ways, being openly discussed it is lesser*. DH's top ranking Italian state school had students he said it was clear had 'bought' their places, and wre prouder of that ability and contat than ashamed of the lack of intelliegence this implied.

US state system, for example, is vastly more universal than ours (and on could argu better) but the tales I hear about university applications, (not just based on ability to pay but the coveted plaes available at an Ivy league college) make me wide eyed.

ETA I have deleted a big section about my first hand experience of education in other ountries because it all gets repetitive

E * I don't mean lesser really, I mean, less insidious, less creepy, less dstructive. As an openly accpted route people are gi ven the nod but not too much expectation: scarier is the imbecile with an Ivy League Bought pass handed the power to, say, lead people.

Really2

kennyboy66 wrote: »

I will try and find a link, but the research was done by Warwick Business School and is fairly recent (last 6 years).

As Guy Montag says, it is probably because independent schools are better at coaching students at passing A levels.

I think the top universitys put it down to the interviews, not background. Of course.;) (Sure I saw a documentry on it)

silvercar

My son's very decent state school sends 15+ people to oxbridge each year, so all the comments made here:

I wouldn't be surprised, I went to a relatively cheap independent school where those expected to get the grades to go to oxbridge were groomed for the selection process. So each year 4-5 pupils would expect to go on to oxbridge. Because this happened regularly the teacher running it would know which colleges to apply for (aiui some like engineers, some like Scots or whatever); what the current selection criteria were & so forth.

Compare this to the school my dad taught in which probably had a similar, though somewhat broader, socio-economic makeup. There perhaps one pupil every two years would go on to oxbridge - this meant there was no continuity in the application supervision, so the teacher running it didn't know how best to form the application for the pupil.

apply just as well to decent state schools with academic achievements.

kennyboy66_2

Really2 wrote: »

I think the top universitys put it down to the interviews, not background. Of course.;) (Sure I saw a documentry on it)

I'm sure they do, however until fairly recently, state students were rejected because "they wouldn't fit in". Not surprising when you see picture of the Bullingdon Club.

While an interview is important, it has the severe danger that people recruit in their own image.