Train Penalty Fare (Birmingham New Street)

KingCheeseZombie

Just thought I would use my first ever MSE post to share an experience I had with the ticket officers (employed by London Midland) at Birmingham New Street station...

My partner and I made a journey from a local station (Selly Oak) via Birmingham New Street (BNS) where we had to change trains one Sunday - we arrived at Selly Oak station 10mins before our train and queued to by tickets from the machine. Unfortunately, only one of us was able to buy a ticket before the train arrived so we boarded and traveled to BNS one of us without a valid ticket - which I openly admit.

However, as we traveled arrived at BNS before 11am there were no ticket barrier staff on duty to check our tickets so we passed through the barriers without the usual inspections and out of BNS. My partner then purchased to onward portion of her ticket from BNS to our planned destination and we passed through the now-manned ticket barriers to catch our train.

Unfortunately, and this is where things take a complicated turn, my partner approached a ticket officer (on the platform side of the barriers) to see if she could purchase the ticket from Selly Oak we tried to buy in the first place - at which point she was taken aside and issued with a Penalty Fare for not having a ticket for the journey to BNS - even though we now both had valid tickets to be in a designated ticket area or on or leaving a train.

In effect the ticket officer issued the ticket retrospectively on a journey that occurred in the past - now I am not denying that under the terms and conditions of travel to and from BNS that we should have had tickets for all required areas of both station and carriage. However, having read Annex A Penalty Fares Rules 2002 that governs the issuing of Penalty Fares I cannot find a single section that allows for this retrospective style charging regime,l please see below extract:

6 People who may be charged a penalty fare

1. Any person travelling by, present on or leaving a penalty fares train must, if asked by an authorised collector, produce a valid ticket or other authority for the journey they have made or are making.

2. If a person fails to produce a valid ticket or other authority in line with rule 6.1, the authorised collector may charge that person a penalty fare, in line with the Regulations and these rules.

3. Any person who is present in a compulsory ticket area intending to board a train must, if asked by an authorised collector, produce a valid ticket or other authority for the journey which they intend to make on that train.

4. Any person who is present in, or leaving, a compulsory ticket area, other than a person referred to in rule 6.1 or 6.3, must, if asked by an authorised collector, produce a valid ticket or other authority allowing them to be present in that compulsory ticket area.

5. If a person fails to produce a valid ticket or other authority in line with rule 6.3 or 6.4, the authorised collector may charge that person a penalty fare, in line with the Regulations and these rules.

6. The amount of any penalty fare must be as set out in the Regulations.

7. For the purposes of rule 6.2, a ticket or other authority is not valid for a journey if it is not valid for the class of travel used on that journey.

I hold my hands up and agree that my GF wasn't acting with the highest level of common sense when admitting that she had previously traveled without a ticket; however, my issue lies within the interpretation of the Regulations (above) that govern the issuing of Penalty Fares - can they be issued retrospectively - the way I interpret the above guidance is that they can only be issued at point of inspection if you do not meet the necessary requirements - at point of the inspection we both had valid tickets.

I have written to the Independent Appeals Service and they upheld the Penalty Fare; however, I do not believe that they fully addressed the issues raised above and did not forward me, as I had requested, the section of the Regulation that allows ticket officers to make these type of charges.

Needless to say - in the time it took to issue the Penalty Fare we missed our connecting train and our day was ruined - I am prepared to put it down to lesson learned - if indeed the ticket was issued correctly (lawfully) in line with the governing legislation - if not I am prepared to take it further as it strikes me that on this evidence - if you are stupid enough to admit it you could be retrospectively charged for any journey you didn't pay for regardless of when you made it!

Comments/advice most welcome

chuckley

why when you got through did u try to buy the ticket from ur otiginal destination?!

someone else's daughter did the same thing... WHY?! u got through so what are u tryna buy a ticket for?!

KingCheeseZombie

I think my GF tried to purchase her original ticket as it would have been cheaper to buy one return than to have to purchase a second ticket to return to our origin station - e.g.

1 return from S Oak to our original destination = £2

1 return from BNS to original destination = £2
+
Single from BNS to S Oak = £1-2

I know it's not a great deal of money in the scheme of things but she is a student and likes to save wherever she can - besides which I am more concerned about establishing if the penalty fare was issued correctly as opposed to explain the reasons behind our less then sensible actions on the day...

David333

6 People who may be charged a penalty fare

1. Any person travelling by, present on or leaving a penalty fares train must, if asked by an authorised collector, produce a valid ticket or other authority for the journey they have made or are making

I imagine it would come under this one: you were leaving a penalty fares train and failed to produce a ticket for the journey you'd made. You could potentially argue that you had left rather than were leaving I suppose but I'm not sure how that would work. Alternatively that you weren't specifically asked by an authorised collector... .

If you can't buy a ticket at the station or on the train then is it not okay to buy one at your destination for the journey you've made...? Seeing as you hadn't left the station concourse, could you not say that at the first opportunity you tried to buy a ticket to cover the journey you'd made...? I don't know... .

Voyager2002

I understand that the stations are obliged to sell you a ticket within ten minutes (part of the old passengers' charter). Since you waited for ten minutes and a few seconds, you should have been able to pay "at the first opportunity", which would have been at New Street.

KingCheeseZombie

As my original post detailed - there were no train staff on the concourse at BNS when we arrived as they didn't go on duty until 11am. we left BNS altogether before returning through the ticket barriers (this time with valid tickets).

In summary - there were no train officers to buy a ticket from between our origin station and the ticket barriers at BNS.

It still doesn't answer the question of whether the rules allow them to issue tickets retrospectively - where does it cut off? After a week, a month, a year? It is not specified within the Regulations...

David333

It does answer the question of whether the rules allow them to issue a fine retrospectively: it specifically covers not just the train journey itself ('present on') but the time period around it ('travelling by'; 'leaving'). You're right that it doesn't appear to specify a time period but that seems to count against you to my mind... .

KingCheeseZombie

I agree to an extent that the rules that allow the issuing of penalty fares are somewhat hazy (maybe that's the way they were intended to be) - but surely the rules have to be applied at the point of inspection - in this particular case we were in a designated ticket area-

3. Any person who is present in a compulsory ticket area intending to board a train must, if asked by an authorised collector, produce a valid ticket or other authority for the journey which they intend to make on that train.

4. Any person who is present in, or leaving, a compulsory ticket area, other than a person referred to in rule 6.1 or 6.3, must, if asked by an authorised collector, produce a valid ticket or other authority allowing them to be present in that compulsory ticket area.

Both rules state that a production of a valid ticket must be made on "inspection" - we passed the inspection as we had valid tickets - the Penalty Fare was for a journey that happened over an hour ago for which we were not inspected on the train or in the designated ticket area - basically, they missed their chance because they didn't clock on till late Sunday morning.

Sorry to keep going back to this point but i have spent 3 hours calling various representatives of the employers of the ticket staff in question, all of which failed to answer the simple question or point me to any rules that allow this.

David333

But you're not looking at 6.1! Surely that applies to you?! "6.1. Any person travelling by, present on or leaving a penalty fares train must, if asked by an authorised collector, produce a valid ticket or other authority for the journey they have made or are making." You have gone up to a ticket collector and told them that you were travelling by the 10.45am from Selly Oak to New Street and could not produce a ticket for the journey you had made... .

You could lie to them and say that in fact you didn't actually take that train; as they didn't inspect you very efficiently I would guess they couldn't charge you.

You could have lied to them and said that you'd only just taken the train and couldn't buy one on departure, and in that case they'd have to sell you one.

The regulations seem quite clear that there isn't a cut-off point. How do you interpret 6.1 to say anything other than thou must have a ticket for a journey you make? You didn't have a ticket, you told them you didn't have a ticket, you get a fine; is that not logical...?

KingCheeseZombie

In my view, the opening words of 6.1 describes the circumstance that the inspection can take place - we were not traveling by, present on or leaving a penalty fare train - we had in fact left the station and returned putting us in points 3/4

I agree that given the rather stupid (yet innocent) admission of guilt about a previous journey 6.1 could (with emphasis on the could) apply - I guess the question is one of interpretation (which these rules seem quite open to) and reasonableness in enforcing the rules. I feel on another day I could have got a completely different outcome from the situation had we spoken to another train officer - as I regular train traveler (and public transport user) I appreciate a consistent level of service so I know where I am - if I break rules then I will accept the consequences - if I disagree with the application of those rules then I will appeal/complain - We could spend all night speculating about the ways in which the rules can or cannot be applied to the situation I have described.

Consequently, I have raised the appeal to Passenger Focus who side with my own interpretation and have agreed to lodge an appeal on my behalf to see if we can get a full refund.

I will post the outcome once it is received.

David333

Let us know what happens! From the train companies' point of view, I can't imagine any circumstances where they'd allow such a situation that you can fail to buy a ticket for a journey, get away with it, and then the next week go up to the ticket collectors, taunting them with the fact that you travelled without a ticket last week, maybe with a little 'no ticket' dance :P

I can imagine certain situations where they might be more lenient (informing them straight away, unable to buy a ticket at the departure station) but not in the circumstances where you innocently admit guilt to get a discount on your next journey! Good luck though