NI Presbyterian mutual society, Short of funds for withdrawal?

Lakeland

Nama is getting tough on those who moved assetts before the financial crisis reached its climax (Belfast Telegraph 15-12-11).
Developers will be investigated thoroughly on all their financial transactions leading up to and during the crash.
Is there a case that similar action is needed with regard to PMS debtors?

goodbyepci

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-16619453

BETRAYED

goodbyepci wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-16619453

".......Another of Mr Moore's firms went into liquidation in 2009; SH Moore and Sons owed about £86,000 to the PMS but the exposure of the other group firms is understood to be much greater."

Directors were signing off large loans to one builder/developer
contrary to what savers were told.

Lakeland

I assume we have all taken time to read and digest BBC report. The figures are quite wrong. Moore's debts to PMS were published in Daily Mirror in December 2008 at £30,000.000.00. This figure was never challenged.
BBC states all Moore's debts were in development land. Again this is inaccurate. There have been items on this forum showing finished properties built by Moore and also in latest Administrator's report he points out he asisted in the finishing of some properties, we can assume some were Moore's.
The figures published are clearly pulled from the air with poor research. However Moore was involved with PMS for a considerable time before 2008 administration surely he must have equity in some property. Also in such cases it is possible for administrator and now liquidator to bring personal charge against Moore's private property.
Today's announcement was inevitable and others will follow. It can only be right when thousands of us await the remainder of our savings that debtors cannot be permitted to keep assetts intact at the expense of those they borrowed from in good faith. As I mentioned in an earlier post, like Nama I would be very confident that Arthuir Boyd, John Hansen and others in legal team will seek to protect PMS savers interests by way of forensic accounting investigation. I trust there will have been no movement of assetts to spouses, children or grandchildren before the crash. Surely honourable men will make every effort and use all means to repay fellow savers including PCI Orphan Society, Widows of Ministers Fund, Belfast City Mission Funds, many trust funds and many Congregations who have deferrerd payments to allow smaller savers 100%.

JPB01

Also in such cases it is possible for administrator and now liquidator to bring personal charge against Moore's private property.

I'm afraid you misunderstand the whole point of limited liability. People organise their businesses through limited companies for the very reason that their creditors cannot hold them personally liable for the debts of the business. This is only overridden if the company director has signed personal guarantees (PGs). PGs were, as we know, very common during the property bubble across the island of Ireland. But were the PMS in the business of getting borrowers to sign PGs?

Lakeland

Thanks JPB01. I do understand limited Company Law. Mr Moore I understand would have had to sign personal guarantees, added to this being a "Sound Presbyterian" in his part of the world, he would have required a reference from his minister to have obtained first loan. However we have no way of knowing if any of these two conditions were met.
Then there is the moral argument! Will Mr Moore and his family keep all there personal assetts while those individuals and organisations go without their own property?

JPB01

The Moore's helicopter has already been sold to someone in Italy.

BETRAYED

See from the Administrators' latest report that the Creditors' Committee have met for a third time.
If they and the Administrator see their only duty is approving his expenses it is time something was done.

Creditors' representatives have a duty to ask questions of the Administrator and get answers.

Mosside in North Antrim, a socially deprived Protestant village is one example of where social housing is needed and Moore's land there could be used by a Housing Assn for building such homes.

Have Creditor's committee or the Administrator ever looked at ideas like this ?

The local Minister, MLAs, Councillors and local Community Assn should be consulted.

There used to be a Presbyterian Housing Assn. Not so long ago they merged with another Assn. and dropped the name Presbyterian. I wonder why?

JPB01

The BBC have a new story which says the liabilities of the relevant Moore companies are £27m - that is similar to the Daily Mirror figure. I've looked at the receivership documents and I'm afraid it's very bad news. At best these assets are in 'secondary locations' ie. the back of beyond. Nama and the local banks are coming down with similar stuff but there is no market for it even at liquidation prices. It is highly likely that the losses on the Moore portfolio will be 80% - 90%.

And then there's a question about a gentleman in Richhill and his ability to pay back what he owes.

BETRAYED

JPB01 wrote: »

The BBC have a new story which says the liabilities of the relevant Moore companies are £27m - that is similar to the Daily Mirror figure. .............. It is highly likely that the losses on the Moore portfolio will be 80% - 90%.

And then there's a question about a gentleman in Richhill and his ability to pay back what he owes.

JPBOI
That is bad news for all of us who still have c15% of our savings in PMS (In Administration and Scheme of Arrangement).
Little wonder our last report suggests there will be no more payout to us before 2020.
Do you know what PMS loans were secured properly against property or lands to Moore?
This info would have been in the Moore Companies list of creditors
made available to the public by administrator of those companies seven days before a creditors' meeting.

In the case of the Richill builder I think he was not in a limited company and in that case the courts allow him to make a working agreement with his lenders.