NI Presbyterian mutual society, Short of funds for withdrawal?

crazymess

Perhaps you have seen this before:


Monday, May 04, 2009

McNarry on Presbyterian Mutual Society

The ongoing disaster which is the Presbyterian Mutual Society has rightly excited interest from many unionist politicians including Arlene Foster and Jim Allister amongst others. Most of them have (again rightly) been pressurising the government and the banks. David McNarry (not normally one of my favourite politicians) has been one of those involved. Saturday’s News Letter has reports of letters from the PMS implying a pretty inextricable link between the PMS and the Presbyterian Church.
This from 1992
“That it is fulfilling a very necessary function within our Church is evidenced by the number of applications coming before the Board.”
“It is indeed a further mark of the Church’s caring concern for the welfare of its people.”

A letter sent the following year to an investor again described the PMS as a “helping agency within the Presbyterian Church in Ireland.”
The same article quotes David McNarry making the most direct criticism I have seen of the Presbyterian Church in this affair:
“It was never acceptable that the stance taken by the Presbyterian Church to distance itself from the PMS excused it from or absolved it from any responsibilities.”
“There is no doubt in my mind that in the ‘good days’ the Church made no such efforts to set itself apart from the PMS.”
“The Church now has two obligations and duties to perform – first they must involve themselves in guarantees to the savers and second they must avoid a split in the Church developing.”
“Guarantees by the Church, which will clearly signal to the savers that the Church will not desert them, are urgently required.”
I have argued this before but it really is past time for the Presbyterian Church to step up to its (financial) moral responsibilities.

goodbyepci

Just found this on the UUP website
There is no date on it, I'm not sure if it is old news?
Has the Treasury Committee been back here again?

http://uup.org/newsrooms/latest-news/assembly/savers-need-a-confidence-boost.php

Dr._Who_2

Can I ask a question - why is no one keen to pick up on what is the most obvious link of all? PMS "Agent" on Board of Mission in Ireland (ex-officio) on the nomination of the Business Board of the General Assembly. What "special contribution" would such a person have to make on BMI? Why should this have been enshrined in the Code of PCI
Seems to me this whole situation hits both ways - PMS saw itself as making a "special contribution" to PCI and PCI also saw this to be the case by granting ex-officio membership, normally reserved for those who have some contribution to make!!
I have mentioned this before and NO ONE has commented on it at all!! And this goes right back to 1984 when it was decided by the General Assembly and included in the Code of PCI!!

joylikes2shop

Dr._Who wrote: »

Can I ask a question - why is no one keen to pick up on what is the most obvious link of all? PMS "Agent" on Board of Mission in Ireland (ex-officio)
I have mentioned this before and NO ONE has commented on it at all!! And this goes right back to 1984 when it was decided by the General Assembly and included in the Code of PCI!!

Dr Who,I haven't a clue what it actually means....I've been hoping someone else who does know (and the implications) would investigate it and report back here with their findings....

goodbyepci

Dr._Who wrote: »

Can I ask a question - why is no one keen to pick up on what is the most obvious link of all? PMS "Agent" on Board of Mission in Ireland (ex-officio) on the nomination of the Business Board of the General Assembly. What "special contribution" would such a person have to make on BMI? Why should this have been enshrined in the Code of PCI
Seems to me this whole situation hits both ways - PMS saw itself as making a "special contribution" to PCI and PCI also saw this to be the case by granting ex-officio membership, normally reserved for those who have some contribution to make!!
I have mentioned this before and NO ONE has commented on it at all!! And this goes right back to 1984 when it was decided by the General Assembly and included in the Code of PCI!!

Dr Who
Please would you post the online link to this item in the Assembly minutes?
I looked for this yesterday and could not find it online.

Thanks

crazymess

Dr._Who wrote: »

Can I ask a question - why is no one keen to pick up on what is the most obvious link of all? PMS "Agent" on Board of Mission in Ireland (ex-officio) on the nomination of the Business Board of the General Assembly. What "special contribution" would such a person have to make on BMI? Why should this have been enshrined in the Code of PCI
Seems to me this whole situation hits both ways - PMS saw itself as making a "special contribution" to PCI and PCI also saw this to be the case by granting ex-officio membership, normally reserved for those who have some contribution to make!!
I have mentioned this before and NO ONE has commented on it at all!! And this goes right back to 1984 when it was decided by the General Assembly and included in the Code of PCI!!

Spell it out for us!!!!

joylikes2shop

Dr._Who wrote: »

I mentioned one other time about PMS having an "Agent" on the Board of Mission in Ireland, a right set out in the Code and granted, in 1984, by decision of the General Assembly. Would like to see the Constitution(not the rules) of PMS to find if this link is mentioned there.

Ok...so I'm looking into what exactly the term ''ex officio'' means....I think I understand but not confidently enough to try and explain it here...I'm sure someone more knowledegable can though.

It certainly would be good to see the 'Constitution' of the PMS, but where could we find this ??
From memory,when I went to the Companies Registry in Belfast (MONTHS ago) there was no such thing in the PMS folder.

I took photo copies of some of the earliest stuff in the folder which was no mean feat- if anyone else has seen the state of the folder they'll know what I mean.

Anyway, from memory the earliest paper work contained such stuff as a copy of the 'special resolution for conversion of a company into a registered society...''

and a certificate which certifies that

''The rules of the above named society {PMS},which are referred to in the special resolution dated 4th February 1982 of the Rural Settlement Trust ltd, a Company registered under the Companies Act (N.I) 1960, have been registered on 13th May 1982''.......

There was a copy of the original rule book....but no copy of a ''Constitution'' as far as I remember....I could go back another time to look through the folder again if you think that this is where we would find such a thing if it exists.
Where else might we find a copy ?

Dr._Who_2

It simply means, in my view, that here we have an "outside" organisation with which we claim to have "no links" represented on an important Board of our Church and involved in the decision making process - only discovered it recently myself.
Go to PCI website - click on "General Assembly" - you will see, on the left hand side, a section headed "Daily Minutes" - click on "Download" in that section - this will take you to the daily minutes of 2008 Assembly. Click on "Daily Minutes for Sixth and Seventh Sessions (Thursday)" and scroll down P. 54 "Board of Mission in Ireland - debate resumed" Bottom of P.54, top P. 55 you will find list of Board Membership - under Paragraph (a) if you read carefully you will see "Presbyterian Mutual Society Agent" This sounds complicated but I hope it helps - will try to find out more, but it merely indicates one more connection - why, if there is no connection, should there be a PMS Agent on this Board.

joylikes2shop

Dr._Who wrote: »

Go to PCI website - click on "General Assembly" - you will see, on the left hand side, a section headed "Daily Minutes" - click on "Download" in that section - this will take you to the daily minutes of 2008 Assembly. Click on "Daily Minutes for Sixth and Seventh Sessions (Thursday)" and scroll down P. 54 "Board of Mission in Ireland - debate resumed" Bottom of P.54, top P. 55 you will find list of Board Membership - under Paragraph (a) if you read carefully you will see "Presbyterian Mutual Society Agent"

Thanks Dr Who....some interesting points including the following which can be found a line or 2 above the paragraph Dr Who is pointing us to

11. That the General Assembly congratulate the Directors of the Presbyterian Mutual Society on its continuing success and encourage Congregations and individuals to avail themselves of its services.


Here's the direct link...

http://www.presbyterianireland.org/assembly/downloads/Sixth_Seventh_Sessions.doc

BUT I ALSO NOTICED THIS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE REPORT......


1. That the next General Assembly be held in Belfast on Monday, 1 June, 2009.

CLOSE OF ASSEMBLY

The Moderator conducted a closing act of worship ......
.....Thereafter he declared the Assembly to be dissolved and convened the next Stated General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland to meet in Church House, Belfast, on Monday 1st June, 2009.


HAS THE DATE OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OFFICIALLY BEEN CHANGED TO TUESDAY 2ND JUNE OR WHERE DID WE GET THE DATE FROM ???

crazymess

Dr._Who wrote: »

It simply means, in my view, that here we have an "outside" organisation with which we claim to have "no links" represented on an important Board of our Church and involved in the decision making process - only discovered it recently myself.
Go to PCI website - click on "General Assembly" - you will see, on the left hand side, a section headed "Daily Minutes" - click on "Download" in that section - this will take you to the daily minutes of 2008 Assembly. Click on "Daily Minutes for Sixth and Seventh Sessions (Thursday)" and scroll down P. 54 "Board of Mission in Ireland - debate resumed" Bottom of P.54, top P. 55 you will find list of Board Membership - under Paragraph (a) if you read carefully you will see "Presbyterian Mutual Society Agent" This sounds complicated but I hope it helps - will try to find out more, but it merely indicates one more connection - why, if there is no connection, should there be a PMS Agent on this Board.

Sickasaparrot or Goodbyepci can maybe help on this too!!!

Wasn't the PMS advertised in the link to Board Mission of Ireland - of course this was a very suitable place for the PMS to link in to -

Think it was deleted off the site?? if I am correct - perhaps those who have screen prints could copy them to the site again.

Anyway - think we were hoping for Government help and perhaps taking our eye off the ball and not directing our attentions at those who are responsible for all of this - PCI and the PMS Directors.