WARNING, WCLI (Wholesale Calls) - the 'dangerous' version of CPS (Carrier PreSelect)

bunking_off

YoungNick wrote: »

Thanks for your fascinating post, bunking_off.

Could you elaborate on one detail? I thought that if I dial 18185 my calls gets routed to Finarea's switch, which then forwards it by whatever network is dumping cheap calls on the market that day (or, as the case may be, to a recording of barking dogs etc) Or have I got that completely wrong?

Hi Nick,

You're correct, and what you've described for Finarea's not at odds with my description above. So far as I'm aware Finarea's both a network & service provider, and they then brand themselves as 18185 etc (think actually my bill comes through as Connect Telecom nowadays, which is name I've also come across in my working life as well).

Every indirect access / CPS network provider - unless they happen to be the one with the terminating line for the destination in question (usually BT!) - hands calls off to another network provider to terminate calls (or a transit network to the terminating network, or a transit network that uses another transit network to the terminating network....). It varies from network provider to network provider how far they carry the call versus send it to another network. The likes of Carphone, Gamma, KCom/Affiniti and Cable&Wireless have extensive networks so carry the call most of the way themselves. As you say, Finarea's "network" is a single switch so all of their traffic goes immediately off-net to whoever's cheapest on the day.

JustPassingBy

First, I would like to say I thoroughly enjoyed your description of routing with CPS and WCLI.

bunking_off wrote: »

With WCLI, the customer dials 1280 and thinks that the calls have been sold via BTRetail and will be priced as such, when in reality they've been sold by Sky.

That's the nub of the problem, isn't it? 1280 is a routing code not a routing and accounting code. CPS makes it look like the latter. With WCLI on the line it is superfluous and a shift in thinking is called for.

. . . . . so what should be done is that BTW should fix their billing system so that the call detail records are correctly streamed to BTR when there's an 1280 prefix, rather than handed to Sky....but that's not easy either.

Customers of Sky give authorisation for their calls to be routed any way the Company determines. Sky wants to route calls over the same network as BT Retail so purchases a product from BT Wholesale to fulfil its obligations to its customers. The product delivers calls and bills customers for Sky, who is, after all, the service provider. I cannot see anything remiss in BT Wholesale's actions or anything that needs fixing.

bunking_off

JustPassingBy wrote: »

Customers of Sky give authorisation for their calls to be routed any way the Company determines. Sky wants to route calls over the same network as BT Retail so purchases a product from BT Wholesale to fulfil its obligations to its customers. The product delivers calls and bills customers for Sky, who is, after all, the service provider. I cannot see anything remiss in BT Wholesale's actions or anything that needs fixing.

That isn't actually the case, which is the nub of the problem.

Customers of Sky will have either purchased a calls package to make Sky their default provider, or a line rental & calls package. Calls packages were based upon CPS, but are now based upon WCLI.

If the customer has moved their line rental to Sky, then much like if they move physically to Virgin, they cede control of who handles their calls to Sky and your assertions would be correct.

If, however, the customer has simply moved their default provider, then Sky has absolutely no right to prevent the customer from using over-ride codes...be that 1280 for BT, 18185 for Finarea or whatever. From when preselect services were introduced about a decade ago, the principle has always been that the customer has call-by-call over-ride using 1xxx prefixes...that Sky chooses to implement its carrier preselect service by purchasing a WCLI service from BT is irrelevant : they have no right to prevent the call-by-call over-ride.

Think of it this way...if Sky had continued to provide the service by using CPS to THUS, there would be no way that THUS could influence whether access codes such as 1280 operate correctly, because that's controlled by BT (actually Retail) as the line provider...and they're regulated to allow call-by-call selection. Only if THUS had taken WLR on the line would they have such privileges. So if THUS aren't allowed to do it without WLR-ing the line, why would BTW (as a competitor to THUS) be allowed to bar access?

JustPassingBy

bunking_off wrote: »

That isn't actually the case, which is the nub of the problem.

Section 11 at

http://www.sky.com/portal/site/skycom/skyproducts/skytalk/terms

If, however, the customer has simply moved their default provider, then Sky has absolutely no right to prevent the customer from using over-ride codes...be that 1280 for BT, 18185 for Finarea or whatever.

Sky does not prevent any override codes being used with Sky Talk. BT Retail certainly doesn't. Neither does BT Wholesale. In what way is 1280 not working correctly or as designed? Note that this is not the same as asking what the customer expects to happen with a 1280 prefix.

...that Sky chooses to implement its carrier preselect service by purchasing a WCLI service from BT is irrelevant : they have no right to prevent the call-by-call over-ride.

WCLI is not an implementation of CPS. It is possible to have both on a line at the same time but CPS takes precedence.

Only if THUS had taken WLR on the line would they have such privileges. So if THUS aren't allowed to do it without WLR-ing the line, why would BTW (as a competitor to THUS) be allowed to bar access?

In the situation you describe THUS is not offering a service to end users (you and me). It could not purchase the Wholesale Calls product.

System

Section 11 of Sky's conditions (for people taking Skytalk, but not Sky line rental) purports to allow Sky to do what they like with calls that the customer chooses to route by Skytalk. It does not purport to allow Sky to steal control of a call the customer routes via Finarea (for example); and, as far as I know, Sky has no means of doing this. Section 5 of part B, for people who also take Sky line rental, warns that Sky may, after giving notice, purport to block 18185 etc.

BT Wholesale's FAQ weirdly claim that CPS will take precedence over WCLI. I don't understand that. It is contradicted by chapter 5 of the WCLI handbook
http://www.btwholesale.com/pages/downloads/Products/Voice/Product%20Handbook%20v2.9%20-%20October%202008.pdf
which says:

As part of the equivalence measures agreed with Industry and OFCOM, the initiation of a WCLI provision order will simultaneously remove the CPS All product if in existence on the line, and vice versa.

All BT residential customers have a contract with BT Retail which includes the provision of some calls via BT. By selling WCLI, BT Wholesale is inducing a breach of the contract between BT Retail and the customer.

JustPassingBy

YoungNick wrote: »

Section 11 of Sky's conditions (for people taking Skytalk, but not Sky line rental) purports to allow Sky to do what they like with calls that the customer chooses to route by Skytalk. It does not purport to allow Sky to steal control of a call the customer routes via Finarea (for example); and, as far as I know, Sky has no means of doing this. Section 5 of part B, for people who also take Sky line rental, warns that Sky may, after giving notice, purport to block 18185 etc.

Section 11 gives Sky the right to send your calls over any network it chooses to use. This year it has chosen to change to BT, making a 1280 prefix to the number unnecessary. Maybe you want 1280 to do something it is not intended to do?

All other prefixes do what they were designed to do too. That is, they route to the network of your choice.

BT Wholesale's FAQ weirdly claim that CPS will take precedence over WCLI. I don't understand that. It is contradicted by chapter 5 of the WCLI handbook . . . . .

I have come to no deep understanding of what these two statements mean in practical terms but do not think they impact on the purpose of 1280.

All BT residential customers have a contract with BT Retail which includes the provision of some calls via BT. By selling WCLI, BT Wholesale is inducing a breach of the contract between BT Retail and the customer.

Section 1 of 'BT Telephony Services service terms' at

http://www.productsandservices.bt.com/consumerProducts/dynamicmodules/pagecontentfooter/pageContentFooterPopup.jsp?pagecontentfooter_popupid=13408

doesn't back you up.

System

I think you are reading into para 11 something that even Sky do not claim. In particular, they have no technical or legal power to block 18185 etc from customers who have kept their line rental with BT. That is confirmed by the fact that Sky separately purport to claim that power in the separate set of conditions for people who have signed up to Sky line rental.

The WCLI handbook backs up my (and others') view that BT Wholesale sells WCLI as a different (and falsely stated to be equivalent to CPS) way of providing automatic selection of a specifed default carrier.

BT's new purported condition 3 for telephony (warning that 1280 may not work as you expect) is unfair, and therefore void under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations.

The implementation of 1280 ought to have been designed to fulfil what the then Oftel clearly set out in its consumer guide to carrier preselection, which is still available on Ofcom's website:
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/Oftel/ind_groups/op_policy/cpscgm/docs/cpsconguidev3.htm
"Do I have to make every call using my CPS provider?
No, you will be able to use any other provider with whom you have arranged services (including BT) by dialling extra digits before the phone number you want to call."

I do not know whether the implementation of 1280 was incompetently designed, not foreseeeing WCLI, or malevolently designed, intending it to allow the BT Group, after the introduction of WCLI, to force people to choose between all or no calls via competitors.

JustPassingBy

Equivalence is a requirement placed on BT by Ofcom to stimulate competition. Heavy stuff, and not to be interpreted as saying CPS and WCLI are equivalent.

It may look as though they are but Sky is not blocking customers without Sky Talk line rental from using 1280. A block would require something active on the network to bar such calls and Sky's entitlement to do that for 1280 or any other override code is zero.

With CPS on the line 1280 overrides placing the call on the service provider's default network . BT will allow the call if it originates from a line which has permission to access the network. With WCLI the service provider's default network is the BT network. Access permission exists. What is the point of 1280? What does it override? In network terms it serves no purpose. It is redundant.

"Do I have to make every call using my CPS provider? . . . . .

Sky Talk users no longer have a CPS provider. Is that an appropriate guide to give them?

I do not know whether the implementation of 1280 was incompetently designed, not foreseeeing WCLI, or malevolently designed, intending it to allow the BT Group, after the introduction of WCLI, to force people to choose between all or no calls via competitors.

I see. You do want a 1280 code different from the one we have now.

jhp

See Post No27 in this thread.
http://www.talktalkmembers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5351&page=3


An official statement from Talk Talk.

"TalkTalk would like to apologise to customers who are no longer able to access calls via the 1280 prefix. BT Wholesale are rolling out amendments in the way in which calls for Carrier Pre Select (CPS) providers are routed. It has become apparent that TalkTalk customers using the CPS service may no longer be able to route calls over BTs network using the 1280 prefix. This is due to changes made by BT wholesale and TalkTalk where not aware of the full impact of this change until recently. We apologise for any inconvenience this may cause our customers. Please remember the calling circle is available and can be used to discount numbers dialled across TalkTalks network including room for a 33% discount on an 0845 number."

System

I think JustPassingBy and I are partly talking at cross purposes, because there is confusion between
(a) over-ridable preselection by the customer of a default biller (which can provide the calls it bills any way it likes), commonly known as CPS, and so called in Oftel's guide; and
(b) a term-of-art, CPS, used within the trade to mean a particular technical means of arranging (a).

Another method of arranging (a) could be WCLI, if WCLI and 1280 had been properly designed to work as the customer expects.

So yes, I do want a 1280 different from the cheating one we have now.