Panorama: Can't Pay, Won't Pay

annieadvisor

i have just watched this programme online and feel that the programme has not really had enough impact about the costs of challenging debts and could also make people fall inot the arms of no win no fee tarts with little prospect of success.

this couple challenged the courts under section 78 CCA (where you send £1 and ask for proof you owe the debt and if nothing happens within 12 days no further enforcemnet can be taken until proof). in this respect they were successful however the various creditors they owed money to later appealed and HH Judge Simon Brown QC ruled that this couple were to put it mildly - not high up his xmas card list. He calls Mrs Rankine perverse and untruthful in seeking to avoid a substantial debt despite having all the benefits of equipment she expects the credit company to pay for on her behalf

whilst some other comments made by the judge was technically incorrect in his interpretations of the CCA at this hearing the outcome was that the couple have been challenged and are now barred from any further financial help towards costs because they are subject to a civil restraint order and have a substantial costs bill slapped onto them to the same region of the original debt they tried to get out of paying.

the guy also did appear cocky so I can see why they got no sympathy from the judge.

if people think they have been penalised by banks and credit companies or they have justifiable grounds that a debt is unenforceable that is all well and good but having a go to see if they can get away with it beware. you will incurr huge costs if the lender decides to appeal - ironically using the Rankine principle.

CardiffChris

I was approached by a company who asked me if I wanted the to review the details of my loan with no fees to begin with. I did this on the impression they gave me being 'why shold I be paying this money if it was leant to me on false pretences and with inaccurate information'.

Having done this for me, they have concluded that the loan doesnt comply with the consumer credit act but are asking for 1164 off me before progressing with this.

I agree, to a certain extent, with the moral side of the debate, but for them to point out that I signed an agreement with an APR of 33.1%, but on assesment of the loan they have identified that the APR is 71.5% infuriates me and leaves me in no doubt that I should dispute this as unenforceable.

Surely though, I a am able to dispute such a massive discrepency without having to fork out to a solicitor. This was 1 of 6 breaches in total that there are with my credit agreement.

Why shouldn't we look for loopholes when we are being robbed - without further investigation, I would have continued to make payments, and in total, would have paid 12174.60. The total repayable sihgned for by me was 8005.50

I would encourage everyone to look into this. From a moral point of view, if I took a loan for 5000 total repayable, i would expect to pay 5000 total repayable. Surely loans should be exactly what we expect them to be and not require a finance qualification or solicitor to point out the flaws

Jimbo65

CardiffChris wrote: »

I was approached by a company who asked me if I wanted the to review the details of my loan with no fees to begin with. I did this on the impression they gave me being 'why shold I be paying this money if it was leant to me on false pretences and with inaccurate information'.

Having done this for me, they have concluded that the loan doesnt comply with the consumer credit act but are asking for 1164 off me before progressing with this.

I agree, to a certain extent, with the moral side of the debate, but for them to point out that I signed an agreement with an APR of 33.1%, but on assesment of the loan they have identified that the APR is 71.5% infuriates me and leaves me in no doubt that I should dispute this as unenforceable.

Surely though, I a am able to dispute such a massive discrepency without having to fork out to a solicitor. This was 1 of 6 breaches in total that there are with my credit agreement.

Why shouldn't we look for loopholes when we are being robbed - without further investigation, I would have continued to make payments, and in total, would have paid 12174.60. The total repayable sihgned for by me was 8005.50

I would encourage everyone to look into this. From a moral point of view, if I took a loan for 5000 total repayable, i would expect to pay 5000 total repayable. Surely loans should be exactly what we expect them to be and not require a finance qualification or solicitor to point out the flaws

Yes, I agree with this. If the lender is hiding costs within the agreement and the agreement is flawed, the lender deserves a moral shafting.

If, however, folk dont repay what they have borrowed, that is something else altogether.

My own situation is this: bank charges, late payment charges and interest account for more than my Card debts. They wont pay me back because I am out of time apparently, so I wont pay them either, as they owe me more than I owe them. Nobody can produce a CCA on any card (3 of them) and one card with a £5k limit should have been declined at the application stage. So, it is stale mate. One threatened to bankrupt me, sent official looking papers from a third party scum bag but never followed through. So they can all sit on a large one frankly, as I am owed more than I owe.

IF, and it's a big if, the banks had acted within the law, not charged unlawful charges to my account and charged interest on them, then passed on that 'debt' to others to pursue, and if when unable to work for a year through ill health, I would have repaid what I had borrowed, that was my agreement. But that wasn't enough for them. They got greedy and now its not collectable, to an extent every time third parties write, I send the letters back stating 'knock it off what you owe me and I'll settle.' I never hear back, obviously.

The moral of the story is banks used agreements, on moral grounds not legal, so if it comes back to them with a cherry on top they only have themselves to blame.

entwistle

I saw the panorama programme and I know of a number of companies helping individuals with unfair credit agreements.

What most people don't realise is that the banks are allowed to lend out 10 times the amount they receive. So for every £1,000 of deposits they can legally lend out £10,000. Money that did not exist and they didn't have. They just create a figure electronically. Don't believe me! do a google search on "fractional reserve banking".

These lenders have been doing this for years, lending money they don't have to individuals without checking their ability to pay it back, how many other cards/loans they have and the total limits available for each. Just throwing money at them without control.

On top of this they charge the lender hefty interest on the money that does not exist making huge profits. :mad:

So by allowing individuals the ability to challenge unfair credit agreements or even non-existant credit agreements the banks in many cases write off money that never existed.

Anyhow now the government has given the banks tax payers money, they are going to lend it all back to us with interest. So money we have all been taxed on we will also pay intested on. Now how is that fair? The banks win!

~Brock~

Do you have any qualifications in economics or do you just believe anything that conspiracy theorists tell you?

markelock

DebDay wrote: »

That's what I am interested in doing. Have trawled through the Consumer Credit Act,but didn't really come up with much.

All I can see is that my Loan agreement is not dated at all. There is a spelling mistake at the bottom. (setlement not settlement). And the copy that I have is only signed by myself, not by the lender. (I believe that my copy is an executed copy) There isn't even a space for the lender to sign. That is the only thing that I can think would help in any way as Consumer Credit Act stipulates that an executed (which I take to mean agreed) credit agreement, must be signed by both the Borrower and the Lender.

Other then that haven't got a clue what to do! Little help please all you wonderful MSE veterans!!! MWAH XX

this must be a joke. I presume you're just giving them the money back that you borrowed then? maybe with no interest.

annieadvisor

it is a case of buyer beware here. lots of people falsely believe a highly edited programme and think that their situation is the same. the panorama programme did not highlight enough the fact that the couple involved ended up later down the line at the court of appeal and lost incurring large legal costs which can never be written off/ put on a bankruptcy etc.

i agree with the other comments on this thread that it is dangerous for everyone if we all go gung ho to try and avoid our debts. it just makes lenders more agressive when genuine cases of hardship are asking for help.

creditors are already using the rankine case to argue back at those who are challenging agreements although there were flaws in the court of appeal decision but it shows how these sorts of actions can blow up in peoples faces. my advice is to think hard about the costs involved

with regard to chris cardiff query this looks as though it has better merit as the calculations make the agreement questionable and possibly unenforceable.

hope80

hi all am neby to the forum I heard about all this a few month ago and phoned my bank for a copy of my agement and the bank replyer "er er what do you want that for can i not help what do you want with your agrement" i said no thanks can you pleasse post it out to me then he told me i would take about ten days i never did get it do you think i have a case ??

Kizan

Hi everyone,

I'm a forum newbie so please be gentle :wave:

I'm sure I must be typical of quite a large number of people in as much as when times were normal and business was good I run up 2 credit cards and took a large unsecured loan of £20k plus. For the last 3 years or so I've had no trouble meeting payments but now the credit crunch is really hurting me, I'm self employed, and I'm really struggling to pay the bills every month and there is a real danger I'll go bust. I've therefore been looking very seriously at loads of companies on the internet claiming they can legally wipe out all your debts. So far I've been unable to find any who will work on a success fee basis (no win, no fee). All appear to want £395 up front AND a % of any monies "written off" as a success fee. Most of these companies feel like a scam to me, or at least a MLM scheme. One in particular who have hordes of sales people and advertise on local radio - I might get censored for revealing their name, so as a clue the word "CAR" is in their name, that's all I can "TELL" you!!!

Have any of you come across a genuine, professional company who could look into the possibility of looking at my loan and 2 credit cards to see if they could be legally written off, without taking my eyes out in the process?

Please pm me if you either know of such a company or indeed can help me yourself.

Thanks in advance for your help people.

Cavman

Hello Kizan,
I too work for myself, One of my clients works for the company you were hinting at and from what I am told they do seem to know what they are doing. However the costs they ask for is a bit worrying. Like other people I am struggling and am going to try and go down this route but do it myself, not sure how I will get on but if you search the forum you can find plenty of template letters to get you started. It cant do any harm to start by asking for a true copy of a cca.
I think that the way some creditors treat there customers if far from fair and if you can get one up on them all the better.

I cant really offer any more advise but I would start by trying to do it for yourself.

Cavman