Can I change a thermocouple or do I have to call an engineer?

tomstickland

This isn't a gas dig, more of a general thought. The thing that worries me is in a few years time when consumers are even more stupid than now and everything will be regarded as dangerous then we won't be allowed on paper to even wire a plug in anymore.

the_gasman_2

gromituk wrote:

Reading some of the things said on here, you'd think that gas was as dangerous as plutonium!

I haven't done any gas work for a long time. If the relevant regulations are available online (and why shouldn't they be?), then I will be able to see all these obscure gotchas you enjoy conjouring up. I will read and understand them before doing any gas work. And I would be very happy to have my work inspected. I hope CORGI does spot checks on its members' work, likewise - not just when people complain. After all, for professionals, time is money, so there is always the temptation to cut corners.

This brings me to my unanswered earlier question then: is it no longer possible to do your own gas work and get it commissioned by a CORGI fitter? Because, as I said, a colleague did that a few years ago and he's not someone to do anything illegal. The gas fitter was very impressed with his work.

Of course, as gas fitter yourselves, you've seen your fair share of bodged jobs, as any electrician, car mechanic or other professional will have seen, too. But I'm sure you've seen bodged jobs by professionals as well, CORGI registered or not.

There should be some competition out there: CORGI should not be the only body allowed to train and certify gas fitters, which is what I presume they do. Or is it possible merely to sit an exam with CORGI and do the rest yourself?

I sense a bitter taste, but I do appreciate what you are saying grommit as its frustrating for all of us. There are certain jobs i have to walk away fom because i dont have the relevant quals.

As for your question, I wasnt aware that you could do your own work and then have it commissioned. Certainly not something my company would do. Anyway i spoke earlier of the plumber not being able to hang a boiler on the wall if not registered. Its the same thing..
Its simple. We all have our areas of expertease and its our way of making a living. Stick to what you are qualified in as i am sure you need customers too...

Should you install a new appliance yourself, remember that it now has to be registered with corgi for a small fee. Much smaller than getting a building inspector in to sign it off. The reason for this is that when you come to sell your house in JAN 2007 and you fill out your mandatory homebuyers pack you will be able to prove that it was done through the proper channels. ANY discrepancies will have to be rectifed before you can sell. This is to stop the cowboys and gubby jobs and to secure the safety of the prospective purchaser.

As i said in my last post i DO NOT suggest in any way you are not competant, but the regulations do. Regardless of your personal competence you must hold the current gas ACS quals to work on any gas pipework/appliance whether breaking into the line or not. Just taking the outer casing off your boiler constitutes in breaking the law. I don't write the rules i just follow them like everyone should. We are not above the law.

Finally, CORGI get a lot of stick, but they are there to support the gas engineers, provide assistance and stick up for us or the customers when problems arise. Not that they do, but that is why we pay them money each year.

moneysavingplumber

gromituk wrote:

This brings me to my unanswered earlier question then: is it no longer possible to do your own gas work and get it commissioned by a CORGI fitter? Because, as I said, a colleague did that a few years ago and he's not someone to do anything illegal. The gas fitter was very impressed with his work.

I did answer that question in that the manufacturers require both installer and commissioning engineer, if different, to submit their Corgi reg numbers, and as far as I know it is simply not legal to do so anyway as you would still be working on a gas appliance.

gromituk wrote:

I haven't done any gas work for a long time. If the relevant regulations are available online (and why shouldn't they be?), then I will be able to see all these obscure gotchas you enjoy conjouring up. I will read and understand them before doing any gas work.

The Gas Safety Regulations are available for anybody to read. You can always contact the HSE for clarification in these matters if you are still in doubt, and you would be able to get details of the prosecutions that have been brought. I personally don't 'enjoy' conjuring up anything, I am actually finding this tiresome and I don't think I am the only one, but not because I am not confident that I am correct, because I am confident of that. Reading and understanding, by your own definition, the Gas Safety Regulations is equivalent to buying a dentistry textbook and attempting to carry out fillings on your nearest and dearest thereafter, you just (I hope) wouldn't do it. The point is that the law dictates that it is only Corgi at this time that are able to lawfully assess and register anybody as being competent to work on gas fittings, and that is the end of it, whether or not you personally agree with that makes no difference.

Corgi do not train anybody, ACS training and certification is carried out privately or in local colleges and certification bodies are BPEC, CITB and Zurich. Those bodies issue the certification documents once the applicant has passed the assessments in practical workshop conditions and exam conditions for the theory, but that does still not legally enable them to work on gas fittings. The person must then apply to join Corgi, at which point they will be interviewed and assessed by the local inspector before their application is approved. Corgi are now spot-checking al installers' work via the registration of works schemes, they have contacted my customers and made inspections without consulting me. Applicants to take ACS gas courses now have to prove they have substantial supervised experience working with gas before they will be admitted for the training course and assessments. A very good young plumber I know recently failed, because he didn't think enough to fit a temporary earth bond when cutting gas pipe or to remove a meter when soldering on the supply. If you are implying it is easy then I should tell you I have seen big burly blokes that have been plodding away soldering on gas pipes next to the meter and testing with soapy water for years reduced to tears because many of them find the assessments so stressful and difficult.

I don't think anyone posting on this thread has over-emphasised the danger of gas in such a way that they would compare it to a radioactive substance. The OP is about whether it would be lawful or advisable for their father-in-law to change the thermocouple and the overwhelming concensus is that it would not be. The arguments about whether the law is an !!!!!! are completely irrelevant and misplaced in this thread, in my opinion, but I for one have attempted to answer them honestly and in good faith for the benefit of anybody reading that may be in doubt as a result.

gromituk wrote:

I hope CORGI does spot checks on its members' work, likewise - not just when people complain. After all, for professionals, time is money, so there is always the temptation to cut corners.

I find this point obviously provocative, trolling almost, and I've tried not to bite but I will respond. The idea that I would 'cut corners' because 'time is money' I actually find offensive. I have on one occasion travelled 20 miles back to a job because I couldn't actually remember carrying out a particular check (leak detector on the test point nipple post tightness test) and knocked on the door explaining this to the customer, just to make sure. As it happened I had carried out the check, as I could see the detector residue there, but I had done it on auto-pilot. I would not sleep at night if I took the attitude you suggested and neither would most of my colleagues that I know. I have respected alot of what you have said in this and previous posts but I am disappointed you have actually made such a generalised slant on a group of people that , on the whole, are very conscientious and responsible.

Personally I think this thread has gone as far as it can, and would actually like to see the moderators remove all the irrelevant posts (my own included if necessary) and simply leave those relevant to the OP and then lock it. I'm going to respectfully decline to post any further on this particular thread.

Rhino666

This is a contentious subject and there is no clearcut answer. The obvious thing to do is call out a Corgi registered plumber, assuming you can find one at this time of the year.

People that don't deal with any issues in the home/car, etc are also likely to be very poor at organising proper timely servicing and detecting potentially lethal problems. In my opinion these are the most dangerous people who are more likely to endanger themselves and others around them.

Many people are very competent at DIY and know their limits. I hate the fact that certain people have the opinion that DIYers are like the silly men portrayed in those very irritating AA adverts - some of us are quite capable of handling many jobs but know when we are out of our depth and when to call the professionals in. I service my own cars and motorbikes, do all my own electrics and have serviced gas fires, etc, etc. I wouldn't condone anyone doing any of these tasks unless they were competent and felt completely comfortable with the task in hand.

Of all the household/car tasks I would personally have more reservations about tackling gas than anything else. Having said that changing a thermocouple is a job I would do myself - shame on me !!

the cost in time and money of Corgi registration is crippling for the one man plumbing company as moneysavingplumber has said. One of my plumber friends is now a former plumber working for a defense company because of it !! There are a lot of good plumbers/gas fitters who are not Corgi registered - presumably these people would be deemed to be unqualified to change a thermocouple as well ?
The fear and suspicion generated by this sort of work has very little basis in my opinion. If you employ a Corgi gas fitter to fit a part on a boiler, he will no doubt fit the correct part but is very unlikely to then carry out the plethora of general safety checks that Corgi registration is all about. He simply fits the part and walks away !!

espresso

I fully agree with the comments made by Rhino666.

gromituk

moneysavingplumber wrote:

I find [the suggestion that there is always the temptation for the professional to cut corners, because time is money] obviously provocative, trolling almost, and I've tried not to bite but I will respond.

I'm sorry that you think that. I really was not trolling. I was merely pointing out a fact. I never said the temptation would always be acted upon; I said that it was there. Read my posting carefully.

The idea that I would 'cut corners' because 'time is money' I actually find offensive.

I never said that you would. I have never said that anything you do is the least bit irresponsible. Sorry if you thought I meant you - but I did not.

But you do admit that others in your profession may succomb to this temptation, by using terms like "most" and "on the whole". Most is not all - you must have your doubts.

However, this is simply a generalisation that starkly illustrates the other generalisation that is being made: that a DIYer cannot be competent. If I chose to take this personally, then I could be as offended as you about it. But I realise it has not been meant personally - please grant me the same understanding.

I'm sorry I missed your answer to the question about a colleague doing his own gas work. I will get some more details from him when I get a chance. There certainly seems to be some confusion here.

Doing your own work is very much about money saving, however off-topic the rest of this thread may be.

Personally I think this thread has gone as far as it can, and would actually like to see the moderators remove all the irrelevant posts (my own included if necessary) and simply leave those relevant to the OP and then lock it. I'm going to respectfully decline to post any further on this particular thread.

Assuming you're still reading (most are tempted!), then I don't think removing postings is justified, now I've explained that I was not being personal.

I suggest they should, instead, be split off from the original thread. I think it is a relevant discussion, but under another title. Closing it and deleting posts looks like censorship to me.

the_gasman_2

gromituk wrote:

I'm sorry that you think that. I really was not trolling. I was merely pointing out a fact. I never said the temptation would always be acted upon; I said that it was there. Read my posting carefully.

I never said that you would. I have never said that anything you do is the least bit irresponsible. Sorry if you thought I meant you - but I did not.

But you do admit that others in your profession may succomb to this temptation, by using terms like "most" and "on the whole". Most is not all - you must have your doubts.

However, this is simply a generalisation that starkly illustrates the other generalisation that is being made: that a DIYer cannot be competent. If I chose to take this personally, then I could be as offended as you about it. But I realise it has not been meant personally - please grant me the same understanding.

I'm sorry I missed your answer to the question about a colleague doing his own gas work. I will get some more details from him when I get a chance. There certainly seems to be some confusion here.

Doing your own work is very much about money saving, however off-topic the rest of this thread may be.



Assuming you're still reading (most are tempted!), then I don't think removing postings is justified, now I've explained that I was not being personal.

I suggest they should, instead, be split off from the original thread. I think it is a relevant discussion, but under another title. Closing it and deleting posts looks like censorship to me.

I suspect the best way forward would be to "AGREE TO DIFFER".
You obviously have your views on this matter and for whatever reason(personal or otherwise) i feel that neither you or any gas fitter will solve this arguement. I commend you on holding your own within this arguement, but feel that maybe you think that qualifying over many years through an apprenticeship and learning the hardway does not justify us to be the only people allowed to work on gas.
Thats your opinion which you are entitled... In my defence like moneysavingplumber i have to say we are obviously cast from the same breed. I too have often revisited customers to ensure the correct checks have been made. The reason for this was a near miss some 3 years ago with an opened flue combi boiler which spilled products of combustion into the house. Luckilly for me my observations at the service visit fully covered my a@#e and the HSE and British gas investigation team found my work to be of good quality and i was left to carry on with my work with an appology.
Having said that they made my life hell for that 2 weeks which happened to be xmas. So as you can see taking short cuts is not something I would do. Do you take short cuts in your work???
I can't put a roof over my families head if i am sewing mail bags...

Remember, The law is put there for a reason. You may be very competant, but there are many people who do this who aren't.
To close i wish you all :xmassign: and i hope some day this matter is resolved.

gromituk

the_gasman wrote:

I suspect the best way forward would be to "AGREE TO DIFFER".

Agreed. And for a very thorough article on the subject, try http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html.

I did say I would update you on my colleague who got a CORGI fitter to commission his installation. Actually, he installed the boiler and water pipes himself, but got the gas fitter to put in the gas pipe.

And once the gas fitter had left, he corrected the job: the gas fitter had used compression fittings where my colleague had told him that the pipework would be hidden behind kitchen units. He also did a let-by test as described in the above link.

in_my_wellies

Gosh, what an interesting thread!

The thermo couple went twice on my boiler in a short space of time (9 monthsish). The end was completely burnt away. The fitters said, 'its just one of those things' when I asked if there was an underlying fault or problem.

As I had watched them mend it both times and knew the part number (he had left the packaging) when it went again I did it myself. They didn't do any checks, just unscrewed it and screwed on the new one.

This one has been in a year now so I suspect from past history it will go soon.

Now I am wondering what to do. If it is 'one of those things' then I am happy to change it myself for a fiver, however, if there is an underlying fault I should get this checked. Both CORGI fitters have said there isn't so should I believe them? I don't want it to seem as if I'm telling them ther job and as I'm just a middle aged woman I suspect they think I'm happy with 'its just one of those things'!