Tiling (floor & wall) quotes & a technical question…please help!

catt_2

We’ve got some quotes for tiling our bathroom and kitchen and would like to know if they sound fair and reasonable and what questions we should ask. We are in the SE of England, so prices will reflect that I think.

Bathroom

To fit ply to wooden floor 5sq.m Tiler 1 £165, Tiler 2 £80 plus cost of materials.
To tile and grout floors 5sq.m Tiler 1 £250, Tiler 2 £175.
To tile and grout walls 13sq.m Tiler 1 £330, Tiler 2 £275.
Total Tiler 1 £745, Tiler 2 £530 plus flooring materials.

The tiles are ceramic, plain, 30 x 30cm which we will supply.
The tiler will supply adhesives and grout.

Tiler 1 will supply ply floor and wall tile edging strips. He works by himself & would take 5 days. He came across as competent. He sent a typed quote.

Tiler 2 wants us to pay for ply floor but couldn’t say how much. This is despite us asking for a price inclusive of materials. I asked about edging strips for tiles & he said he did not use them. The job will take him & his apprentice 2 days. When he called to view the job his apprentice did not seem able to use a tape measure & he himself wrote the prices on his business card for us. They did not instil confidence.

Tiler 3 is a 2-man partnership. When they called we had decided to do the kitchen as well. We get the quotes for bathroom & kitchen tomorrow when they will phone me.

Kitchen

The kitchen is 22sq.m of which 8sq.m requires ply and the rest 14sq.m is concrete and needs screeding with levelling compound to 18mm. The floor will be plain ceramic 45 x 45cm tiles.

They said it will take them a day to lay the ply and do the screeding, 2 days for the scrccding to dry during which time they would tile the bathroom and 2 days for tiling and one day for grouting. I’m not sure whether the time estimate was for both kitchen and bathroom or the kitchen alone? Just 5 days for both rooms seems fast?

I told them my tiles are ceramic and they said ceramic or porcelain would not matter because they have an industrial cutting machine that cuts very quickly. From the forums I thought porcelain is harder & blunts blades & so costs more from tilers? Rather helpfully they calculated the tile quantities I would need to buy. However, they got the kitchen floor area wrong so I will check the quote.

The technical issues we have are that Tiler 1 wants to use WBP 12.5mm thick ply & screwed at 300mm centres and bonded on reverse with Bal SBR. Does this mean glueing it down? We think he is screwing into the floorboards. He said he would guarantee it rigid & will use flexible adhesive & flexible grout. As to the walls he will only use waterproof grout at the bath shower area and not all the walls due to the cost.

By contrast Tiler 3 say they will use WBP 18mm as anything else would be too thin they said. They pointed out there would be a drop in height of 29mm to the hallway. They will screw through the ply and floorboards where the joists are positioned with screws long enough to get grip into the joists. They would use flexible waterproof adhesive/grout everywhere because they say the cost is not much more and it is worth it.

The Tiler 3 partners seemed keen to get the job and we don’t yet have the quote. We also thought tiler 1 would do a good job. We have not seen sample work from any of them. We still have to budget for the tiles and have already lowered our sights from porcelain to ceramic and so for us the price will be a big deciding factor.

Any replies would be much appreciated.;)

DirectDebacle

First the easy bit.

Forget tiler 2
Tiler 1 seems a tad dear on the (bathroom) floor but I am not in S.E. so unsure of prices up there.

Unless he is absolutely sure there are no cables or pipes running under the floor (unlikely) or where they are, exactly, he needs to screw into the joists. Bal SBR is a primer to help adhesion of the tiles to the ply.

You haven't mentioned basin and pedestal/pan and cistern or radiator/towel rail and bath panel. If present I always remove these prior to tiling and fit back after grouting. Problem will be that because of the thickness of the ply, adhesive and tiles the pipework will probably need adjusting. Not a problem for me as I do plumbing but ask about this. Much neater than cutting round them. Also they sit on the tiles so no problems with water ingress through the cut areas. Simply silicone seal as required. Also silicon floor edges to skirting/wall tiles and all internal corners and ceiling/tiles joint if the tiles butt up to the ceiling. Makes it neat and moisture proof. Allowance needs to be made for these.

Floor adhesive and grout must be waterproof and flexible. Walls around shower/bath area waterproof grout and adhesive. Remainder water resistant. To save messing about I would just use waterproof grout only.

Does the door open into the bathroom. If so it is probably going to need relieving at the bottom. Has this been allowed for.

Quantity of tiles you need is the area of the floor/walls you have shown plus 10% for cuts/wastage. Usually tiles come in boxes of 1 sq m per box but not always so check. So for example buy 6 boxes floor tiles and 15 boxes wall tiles for the bathroom, assuming 1sq m per box.

Have you problems with your floors. 18mm ply sounds a bit thick to me but I don't know the site conditions. Ask why they want it so thick. If the floors are sound I usually go for 9mm unless there is a real reason to go thicker.

Kitchen floors I usually remove the plinths from the units (if applicable) and then tile up to just past the plinth line. Then trim the plinths back and refit on top of the tiles. Is neat, easy to seal and the plinth can be removed if it is ever necessary to remove it for access.

Wait for tiler 3s quote and compare. I can't help you on pricing.

catt_2

Thanks DD, that's very helpful.

The bathroom has been prepared for the tiler.

The door was removed and the room has been stripped out. The new bath is installed and the walls and ceiling are plaster skimmed.

The floorboards are solid and any that have been up were screwed not nailed back.

The tiler is not expected to do any plumbing and our plumber has the new pipework in place for the wc (and wall-hung basin) to cater for a new floor which he calculated would be up to 25mm higher than the floorboards. The plumber was working towards ply of 12mm and our chosen tile of 9mm thickness plus the adhesive.

Tiler 1 has included silicon in his quote and I like your recommendation for finishing with silicon. Should it be white or transparent?

Our chosen floor tile is mixed swirly beige, cream, brown. What colour grout do you recommend? Tiler 1 suggested grey in preference to white. We want to stick to a mainstream colour to keep the prices down but I think brown is available too. What do you think?

Also, we had wanted a white wall tile but we are only part tiling and it has now crossed my mind, might we be able to continue the floor tile on the walls? It is 9mm thick, whereas the wall tile is only 6.5mm thick.

I will ask Tiler 1 to re-quote for waterproof grout all over.

Thanks for the advice.

catt_2

We have now got a price from Tiler 3.

They will get the materials supplied by Topps Tiles where they have a trade account so we get 50% off. The charge for materials is £550. The charge for the job is £2,200. So £2750.

This is by far the most expensive quote so I checked the sq. meterage with them. They agreed they had made a mistake & the kitchen is 22 sq. m and not 50 sq.m but said that this does not alter the price. This is because they don't price per square metre but by how long the job will take. That's 10-12 days for the 2 of them.

I asked the price of the bathroom alone. This is £1200, ie half. plus materials.

They want to paint the plaster walls with pva. I think I read on these forums that it should be done with acrylic? I also questioned the necessity of the 18mm thick ply floor and suggested 12mm. They said 6mm is too thin and there is no such thing as 12mm ply. Yet Tiler 1 quoted for this and I have seen it in the shops!

Why are they SO EXPENSIVE!

I'm wondering whether to get another quote or go with Tiler1.......

DirectDebacle

catt wrote: »

We have now got a price from Tiler 3.

They will get the materials supplied by Topps Tiles where they have a trade account so we get 50% off. The charge for materials is £550. The charge for the job is £2,200. So £2750.

This is by far the most expensive quote so I checked the sq. meterage with them. They agreed they had made a mistake & the kitchen is 22 sq. m and not 50 sq.m but said that this does not alter the price. This is because they don't price per square metre but by how long the job will take. That's 10-12 days for the 2 of them.

I asked the price of the bathroom alone. This is £1200, ie half. plus materials.

They want to paint the plaster walls with pva. I think I read on these forums that it should be done with acrylic? I also questioned the necessity of the 18mm thick ply floor and suggested 12mm. They said 6mm is too thin and there is no such thing as 12mm ply. Yet Tiler 1 quoted for this and I have seen it in the shops!

Why are they SO EXPENSIVE!

I'm wondering whether to get another quote or go with Tiler1.......

Some years back for a short time, much to my regret I sub-contracted to B & Q installing their bathrooms. I think it was around 2000/1. I vaguely remember what they charged customers for bathroom installation (it was a lot more than they paid us for doing it). I seem to remember £40sq.m. for straightforward uncomplicated field tiles. Complex patterns or mosaics were a lot more. Think B&Q paid me £15.00 sq. m. I think tiler 3 is OTT. Different people have different ways of pricing. If I were doing your whole bathroom then I would give you a price for the complete job. Removal and disposal of old suite, installation of new, plumbing, tiling, boxwork etc. Working blind as I haven't seen your bathroom I am thinking circa £ 2.25k job done. You supply the suite, tiles and furniture (if any) me the labour and all fixings, grout adhesive, tile trim etc. Working on my own I would allow 10 days for the job.
Just the bathroom tiling I would look at the square metreage and the difficulty. Probably around £20-25 sq.m. Bit more for kitchen floor.

I would get another quote from one or two tilers and ask before they quote how they charge, whether it is by the job or per sq. m. PVA on the new plaster is what I would use. There are all manner of products but essentially they all perform the same task. Seal and aid adhesion for the tile. Bit like sizing a wall before wallpapering. No reason you can't use floor tiles on walls other than the weight consideration. Plaster skim should not be tiled if the tiles and adhesive are going to weigh over 15kg per sq. m. This is for safety. Floor grout I would not go for white. It will soon lose its' purity. Generally grey works well but you can go as radical as you like. You can get coloured powder to add to white grout in all the colours of the rainbow. The silicone is in addition to the grout. I grout internal corners and then finish them off with silicone. This makes a neat finish and allows for expansion and contraction betweeen two walls or walls and ceiling. I nearly always use white. Clear I use where chrome meets a tile eg chrome frame of a shower cubicle/wall. Don't forget to fill the bath with water up to the overflow and and leave it for about 20 mins before applying silicone around the bath top. Leave the water in the bath until the silicone has gone off. Usually around 24 hrs. Plywood is readily available in 4mm 6mm 9mm 12.5 mm 18mm. Virtually no price difference between waterproof grout and water resistant.

TomsMom

[QUOTE=catt;15339859They want to paint the plaster walls with pva. I think I read on these forums that it should be done with acrylic?
[/QUOTE]

Catt, my son is a tiler. You might want to check out this article on why PVA should not be used as a tiling primer unless specified by the adhesive manufacturer.

catt_2

Thanks so much for the helpful replies.

I got in touch with Tiler 1 again but he is booked up to just before Christmas! As he works by himself & it's a 5-day job, he can't fit it in. I think that confirms my impression of his competency and also that the pricing must be about right for our area here in the SE.

So I've now got 3 more quotes by 'phoning round and asking first if they were available to do the job straight away.

Tiler A said over the phone and without seeing it that he would do it for £680 in cash, working in a team of 3 and start & finish in one day working this Friday! I said I thought 3 in my small bathroom was too crowded to work and it turns out the other 2 are labourers for cutting & handing him tiles....I wasn't convinced of the quality and his 'take it or leave it' remark & possible further rudeness on the job would take the pleasure out of having a new bathroom. I said no.

Tiler B is a local tiler who came to look and measure up and said he wants to price competively as he wants the job as there is less work around now. I liked his honesty. But he was supposed to phone with a price yesterday with a view to starting on Monday. He has not been in touch.

Tiler C came to look and measure up and said his price for ceramic tiles, both floor and walls is £32 sq.m plus materials and £60 to fit the ply provided he got the tiling job as well.

He would fit 12.5mm ply, not glueing just with plenty of screws to make it rigid. He screws into the floorboards not joists as he doesn't want to risk pipes & electrics underneath. He uses flexible adhesive in the floor but not walls. He does not pva the walls as the adhesive does not require it. He uses waterproof grout all over. He recommended light grey grout for the floor and white for the walls. He runs white silicon along the bath to wall edge and corner to corner wall by the bath. He uses plastic beading by the window only.

That all sounds good doesn't it? He guarantees his work and told me a shop where he had done the displays.

In addition, he had 2 suggestions.

One was to tile the side of the bath instead of using a plastic panel. He said it would look classier and he would add a service hatch with magnetic catch. He could also add a skirting board made of cut tiles for the wall with no tiling, to tie it in and make a nice finish. He would work for 4-5 days, probably 5, starting Monday.

To be honest, the pricing per square metre threw me a bit as the others had priced per job and I said so. He calculated the area for me and told me prices for materials, saying I could buy then or he would:

floor adhesive £20-26/bag x3
wall adhesive £15-18/bag x5
grout £20

I said I wanted to think it over and he did not pressurise me.

catt_2

Later, I did my sums and saw the Tiler C's prices were broadly in line with Tiler 1's price which I think is acceptable.

Meanwhile, I have still not heard from Tiler B with his price.

I went to order my tiles and the wall tiles are out of stock! I found another tile I like and this was displayed in a brickwork pattern which suited the tile a lot.

I phoned Tiler C telling him this and asking if he could tile the walls like brickwork. He said it is harder to allign them and takes a bit longer and costs £1-2 extra per sq. m. to reflect the extra work. He needs to see the tile to decide the price. Does that sound reasonable?

I have given him the contract. He starts Monday when I'll show him the tiles and decide whether to lay them conventionally or like bricks and also whether to have the tiled bath panel.

Is there anything else to consider? I have nothing in writing as yet but will get a guarantee I'm told.

Canucklehead

Hi....it has been quite a journey for you. Tiler C sounds the business...make sure he takes away the waste and washes/polishes the tiles for you (OH always does both, that is, if he doesn't get me to do it;) :his clients appreciate it.)
HTH

Canucklehead

DirectDebacle

catt wrote: »

In addition, he had 2 suggestions.

One was to tile the side of the bath instead of using a plastic panel. He said it would look classier and he would add a service hatch with magnetic catch. He could also add a skirting board made of cut tiles for the wall with no tiling, to tie it in and make a nice finish.

All a matter of taste. For me I wouldn't have cut tiles as a skirting. There are custom made skirting tiles available but they are expensive and in my opinion only look good when fitted to a tiled wall. Often see this in Victorian porches. For less money you could get wood skirting with an elaborate moulding and would look better on an untiled painted wall. You can leave it natural colour, or stain it or paint it to suit. That's my taste. If you are having brickwork pattern then it will be awkward having a service hatch to the bath panel as the vertical joint will be 'toothed' and quite obvious. From a maintenance point of view I know from my personal experience that 'service panels' are rarely made large enough to give proper access. Also bath panels do receive the odd knock and unless the backing is pretty solid over time this can cause the grout to fall out or a good knock will crack or dislodge tiles. I would go for a removable bath panel. MDF are much better than plastic and vary in price from around £30 to the skys the limit.

I would use trim on the top of the tiles where you are having half tiled walls. cost is negligble and much neater than having the 'raw' edge grouted or siliconed.

One other thing, don't get too hung up on prices. Bathrooms are refurbished much less frequently than kitchens. Around 10 years or longer is quite common for the life of a bathroom. So if for example you ge two quotes with £300 between them and you think the more expensive will give you a better job then in the scheme of things it may cost you £30 a year more. A small price to pay for a quality job that will last.

catt_2

Thanks Canucklehead. I'm looking forward to that new bathroom now.:D