Help pls - boiler broken - repair or replace?

travel_freak

Hi,

I've just had a plumber out to look at my boiler. It had been losing pressure but then had an error saying "no flame detected" and wouldn't work at all.

After an hour looking at it the plumber told me that the PCB (printed circuit board) was "scorched" and it and the pump had both gone. To replace these would cost £350.

However he said that there would be no guarantee for the PCB even if it failed a week later - he said that no-one ever offers a guarantee on PCBs. So if it does go a short time later I'll have thrown away £350.

He also said it is a cheap boiler and may not be worth taking the risk repairing (it's a Protherm).

I've been quoted £1,500 plus VAT to replace the boiler with a Baxi. I've been told around £700 of this is labour.

Please does anyone have any advice re the PCBs - is it correct I wouldn't get any guarantee if I decide to repair this?

If replacement is a better option then does the quote seem fair? I was told the hourly rate is £35 and to replace the boiler is a day's work so I don't understand why labour costs are £700 - does it take two people to do this?

Many thanks in advance.

travel_freak

Hi,

Me again. I've just looked at the British Gas website and they have an offer on to save £604 if you buy a new boiler from them before 25th October. Plus they throw in a year's free Homecare cover which covers parts and labour in the first year. There isn't a fixed price as you have to arrange a home visit first but has anyone used British Gas to install and know roughly what their prices are? I've heard they're normally expensive but with this offer on it might work out to be a good deal?

Many thanks.

kaya

sounds like you have an engineer who doesn't know what his doing, the chances of the pump going at the same time as the pcb are very slim, all new parts come with a warranty, even pcb's, he sees it as easier to sell you a new boiler than sell you a pcb and pump which may not cure the problem anyway if he is wrong, PCB fault is an engineering favourite, scortched pcb's are usually caused by a rubbish engineer holding the flame of there lighter against them to create a soot mark in order to convince an unfortunate customer, loss of water pressure is usually a leak somewhere in the system(nothing to do with a pcb at all) and a faulty pump would not cause low water pressure(assuming you have a combi), unfortunatly gaining a gas qualification is no reflection of ability to diagnose faults and repair goods, it only means they have been deemed competant to work safely with the appliance, phone the manufacturer of your appliance to find out about part prices and gaurantee periods if your unsure, i have a vokera, they do a call out and parts for £129 on there own boilers(found out from there website)

travel_freak

Hi Kaya,

Many thanks for your advice. I'll ring the manufacturer as you suggest to check the prices and guarantees of the parts mentioned.

But now you've got me worried as to whether this guy is taking me for a ride and are these parts actually broken or not?!

I did think it suspicious that exactly on the hour he came down to tell me, in detail, about the PCB and pump. He then spent around 15 minutes in his van looking for a sticker to say "do not use" to put on the boiler. This sticker turned out to be a piece of paper with handwritten "do not use" on it which he sellotaped to the boiler.

All I know is I was filling the bath one night and didnt realise until it was half full that the water was cold. I went to the boiler and it had an error code which said "no flame detected". Could this be caused by a PCB or pump failure?

He explained to me that it was the PCB burning out which had caused the pump to break - does this sound likely/correct?

He basically said that so many people bought PCBs and then damaged them putting them in and took them back for a refund that no-one now offers a guarantee on PCBs. I have no idea whether this is true.

Don't know what to do now as if I ask another plumber to give his opinion I will be paying twice possibly to be told the same thing.

Equally I can ill afford a new boiler right now so if it is only a small problem which can be fixed I'd rather do that provided I get some sort of guarantee as risking £350 for a repair with no guarantee at the end of it doesn't sound sensible.

Many thanks.

kaya

I did think it suspicious that exactly on the hour he came down to tell me, in detail, about the PCB and pump. He then spent around 15 minutes in his van looking for a sticker to say "do not use" to put on the boiler. This sticker turned out to be a piece of paper with handwritten "do not use" on it which he sellotaped to the boiler........................
A) the only way he should have condemned your boiler is with a correct label(riddor i think), this is purely for dangerous and unsafe boilers with gas or combustion products leaking , the paper sounds designed to worry you




All I know is I was filling the bath one night and didnt realise until it was half full that the water was cold. I went to the boiler and it had an error code which said "no flame detected". Could this be caused by a PCB or pump failure?.............................

A). no flame detected warning, this means simply that a safety system has cut in (as it should) and cut the gas supply as it has sensed no flame, could be the flame sensor device(usually a standard gas thermocouple, cheap as chips) or something more serious, could just be that the boiler needs resetting, (my reset is to turn the boiler off for for 3 mins then back on again) a no flame detected fault is nothing to do with the pump whatsoever, a broken pcb could cause this fault but this is in no way an indication that the pcb is broken, a broken pcb can cause many faults, in 20 years as an engineer working on a huge range of different gas and electrical appliances i came across 2 pcb's burnt out at most

He explained to me that it was the PCB burning out which had caused the pump to break - does this sound likely/correct?.............

A) if the pcb had somehow developed a fault which caused the pump to run continually it is possible , this would have taken a considerable amount of time to burn out the pump and is not very likely

He basically said that so many people bought PCBs and then damaged them putting them in and took them back for a refund that no-one now offers a guarantee on PCBs. I have no idea whether this is true..........


A) my reading of it would be this, "im not sure if it is your pcb that's gone really, if i go buy a new one and fit it and the problem is still there then i won't be able to get a refund", manufacturers wont replace a pcb if it has been fitted as many incompetant engineers diagnose the pcb as a fault, buy and fit it then try and get a refund when it doesn't cure the fault

Don't know what to do now as if I ask another plumber to give his opinion I will be paying twice possibly to be told the same thing...........

A) i would find the manufacturers website and use one of there recomended engineers, unless you know of a good boiler engineer by word of mouth, plumbers are people who cover a wide variety of jobs, they are NOT boiler engineers even if they are corgi registered, financialy this guy can order parts that may not work and spend half a day there, maybe earn a few hundred quid in labour if he has diagnosed the fault correctly( or get a lot of aggro if he got his diagnosis wrong), or buy a boiler at a trade discount ( probably about £400-500 ) then have an easy day with his mate, gauranteed to take £1000 for the day and if it goes wrong in the next two years its not his problem, the manufacturers deal with it, what would you do?

Equally I can ill afford a new boiler right now so if it is only a small problem which can be fixed I'd rather do that provided I get some sort of guarantee as risking £350 for a repair with no guarantee at the end of it doesn't sound sensible.........

A) your right , its not sensible, if i was paying £350 for a repair on any product i would expect the parts and labour i was paying for to be guaranteed , who wouldn't?, i can appreciate how difficult a situation this can be for non techie type people, im just lucky as its my business , word of mouth or the manufacturer would be my best advice, i would see using a plumber to repair a boiler instead of an engineer like using the car bodywork guy to change a camshaft in my car because he has a license to drive it, im sure there are plumbers out there who are very capable boiler engineers but without prior knowledge or a reccomendation your looking for a needle in a haystack, im sure the manufacturer will warranty there repairs

please excuse spelling , it's sunday after all

lovethymini

We're having boiler problems too, paid Npower to service it but it was condemned instead . (well, it is a vintage 25yr old Thorn back boiler!)

We had British Gas round for a quote and felt that they were very very expensive, so a money off deal from them may not be as good as it sounds...

Also, we use the Checkatrade website now for tradesmen, met some really nice people through there. I hope you're able to get a 2nd opinion from a plumber you feel little more comfortable with!

Good luck

EliteHeat

A “Do Not Use” sticker / notice is simply for unsafe gas appliances and has nothing to do with RIDDOR, PCB’s or pumps.

The flame detection failure is also known as flame rectification and has nothing whatsoever to do with thermocouples. Flame failure conditions are indeed usually resolved by replacing the PCB and probe.

As already stated the loss of pressure has nothing to do with the PCB, the pump could possibly be, but it’s unlikely.

PCBs can never be returned if they fail to work, in fact no boiler parts can be if they have been fitted and do not solve the problem. The engineer bears the cost of the parts if the bits do not work, unless of course he can convince the customer to.

Finally, you will be very lucky to get anyone to replace a boiler at an hourly rate. I know that a lot of people here are outraged that it costs more than a tenner to get a boiler installed but in the real world this doesn’t happen.

HelzBelz

travel_freak wrote: »

Hi,

Me again. I've just looked at the British Gas website and they have an offer on to save £604 if you buy a new boiler from them before 25th October. Plus they throw in a year's free Homecare cover which covers parts and labour in the first year. There isn't a fixed price as you have to arrange a home visit first but has anyone used British Gas to install and know roughly what their prices are? I've heard they're normally expensive but with this offer on it might work out to be a good deal?

Many thanks.

British Gas price will probably be at least £604 more than anybody else

travel_freak

Hi,

Many thanks for the replies which I'm going to read in detail but just a quick reply to the post just above this: I don't expect the boiler to be fitted for "a tenner", I'd just like to be charged a fair, honest price for a fair, honest job.

I was told the charging rate is £35 an hour and can't understand then why I have been told that to fit a boiler is a day's work and this equates to £700, when even if you work on the basis of 7 hours to fit it this would come out at £245.

That's why I had asked whether this is a two person job which would make sense of the £700 I had been quoted.

Pls can anyone explain this or tell me what a fair going rate is to fit a boiler if I decide to go down this route?

EliteHeat

It’s actually a fair rate for the job.

I would expect the fitter to cleanse and chemically protect the system, supply & fit an in-line scale inhibitor, do all making good, remove the old boiler and bits and of course supply all fittings, copper etc. In addition, he must inform Corgi and building controls re the new installation and complete the benchmark documentation.

Expect to pay more to bring your installation up to current building reg standards:- this would include TRVs, programmable room thermostats etc

By the way, your Protherm is a Czech copy of an old glow-worm I think, very easy to fix as I remember (if you can get the bits).