Asked for Dental NHS Scale and Polish.Told "Go to Hygienist at £25 extra"

boozercruiser

"BC if you re read the OPs posts it would appear the dentist is not trying to wriggle out of scaling on the NHS.... they are carrying out this treatment for her husband"

As I understand it Pingua's Hubby like you say seems to be being looked after. Pingua on the other hand seems to be being sent to a Private Hygienist at extra cost.

Pingua....."So, if I go to the dentist 2 times a year and the hygienst 4 times how much should I be paying for this lot"??

If you fall for the con of the Hygienist four times a year instead of NHS treatment far too much in my opinion.

The Dentist is not always right in respect of his/her charging. I have sat near many a Dentists Receptionist and listened to people who are complaining or challenging what they have been charged. I bet that even my friendliest Dentists here would have to admit that?

Many a Dentist/Patient relationship is not as I remember it from days gone by, mainly because of the 2006 contract I guess which has poisened the whole set up. Something else that the last Government cocked up. I won't hold my breath that anything is going to improve when the new contract is supposed to be introduced in 2013.

God...everything used to be so simple before 2006. Far lower charges than now even allowing for inflation and far less complicated.

brook2jack

Going for hygiene visits four times a year or more is accepted treatment for "gum disease". Each of the visits will attract a nhs charge of up to £47 (England) legitimately and ethically. No one on an Internet forum should be telling a patient what is clinically necessary to treat a condition.

As to simpler and cheaper treatment pre 2006 ..... Over 400 different chargeable items and £396 maximum charge, and just as many people (if not more)complaining about charges and difficulties understanding them which is one of the reasons the system was changed.

As to people complaining about charges...... Our local nhs emergency dental clinic (run by the health board) which charges £12 NHS fee (band 4) for treating toothache is on its own the health boards biggest debtor due to the enormous number of people who won't pay their contributions despite being asked at appointment and being sent bills. This black hole is now affecting other dental frontline services.

boozercruiser

brook2jack wrote: »

"No one on an Internet forum should be telling a patient what is clinically necessary to treat a condition".

If you are referring to me Sir I can assure you that this is not my intention. It is rather difficult to discuss this whole issue though without encroaching on the mechanics of Dentistry because this also involves 'who does what'. My 'Beef' is only about Dentists who refer NHS Patients to a Hygienist at extra cost instead of doing the honest thing and simply honouring the NHS contract. This could of course involve the NHS Dentist passing the Patient to a Hygienist within NHS charges.

To me the debate whether or not it might ultimately be cheaper for the Patient to accept this 'cross selling' practice is not the main issue, though I can see that it may matter in arguably some cases.

I take comfort from a recent kind mention from Billieblob.....

Please accept my thanks BC, not only for initiating this thread (which has meandered in its intention more than the Amazon) but also for bringing to public awareness the CQC.

Patients in this thread are often surprised and understandably aggrieved by the defensiveness and aggression of the dentists they encounter. Whilst this in inexcusable in a caring profession"...

AND from Toothsmith "What they SHOULD be doing is sending you to the hygienist under the NHS contract! in response to a now familiar question.

I can also rest my case from an E. Mail that I have already posted here from Denticares Clinical Director, which IF carried out by ALL Dentists would take my 'Beef' away in an instant. In the meantime I will continue to take the flac from some self interest opposition and continue to pee into the wind......

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Periodontal Treatment

"Denticare policy is that, for NHS patients, Performers should provide all ‘proper and necessary dental care and treatment’, as detailed in the NHS GDS regulations. This includes periodontal treatment.The regulations do not define ‘necessary’ so individual dentists need to make a clinical decision on whether they consider the treatment to be necessary.

If periodontal treatment is considered necessary it must be offered on the NHS. In many practices the service of a hygienist is available. If the hygienist only provides treatment privately:
when periodontal treatment is considered necessary, the patient may be offered treatment with the hygienist as an alternative to treatment on the NHS. the dentist must offer to provide the treatment on the NHS. The patient is free to chose which they prefer.

On some occasions, and in some practices, the hygienist may provide treatment both privately and on the NHS. In these circumstances:the dentist may give the patient the alternative option of seeing the hygienist privately for treatment. however they are not obliged to give the patient the option of seeing the hygienist on the NHS, as they may offer to provide that treatment themselves on the NHS.

Where periodontal treatment is not considered ‘necessary’ by the dentist: if the patient wishes to have periodontal treatment, such as scaling and polishing for cosmetic or other purposes, it should be provided privately.

NHS resources should not be utilised for unnecessary treatment.
If you have any queries or comments I would be happy to hear from you.

Best Wishes

Paul

Paul Crockford

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The above statement is all I am asking for. Why should I be pilloried here for that by anyone?:(

welshdent

assuming there is no specific request for seeing them ... BC you need to differentiate between sending to the hygienist to screw out extra cash and sending to them because it is cheaper or they just get the hygienist to do NHS perio.
The op seems to be falling roughly in line with a band 2 charge so even if they are indeed paying privately it isnt actually causing anyone to be out of pocket unless they just dont want treatment full stop. As stated before, I often get patients to see our hygienist privately but because she is cheaper than seeing me. Patients are welcome to see me and I would never refuse them but they need to be aware my NHS fees are double her private. Its particularly beneficial to those over 60 who would get a free examination.

In my other practice, the hygienist is a co owner and as such they just see patients as part of NHS courses of treatment. Just seeing a hygienist does not automatically make it private,

boozercruiser

Recently two remarks where made which I would like to help out with....................

Brook2Jack "I'm on a internet forum, I could be 16 year old in school or a 84 year old Albanian goat herder. Or I could be a dentist who withdrew from the most part from NHS dentistry in 2006 trying to put a balanced view that's actually factually accurate".


Coldsreamways "Sometimes I would love to know what other posters on here do for a living so I can spout totally biased and one sided rubbish about their jobs".

Brook2Jack "As to advice to OP this is an internet forum , you may make assumptions about people but you have no proof they are who they say they are , or do for a living what you think they do."

I can only hope that I am not considered to be one that is spouting biased and one sided rubbish as I try not to!

Just in case anyone does not know who I am or what I do for a living.....

(O.A.P. Old And *isse* I am a Pensioner celebrating the fact that I am still alive....So buy me a pint!)

Please allow me to expose myself.....if you are remotely intersted that is!

My name is Kenny (Kenneth) Thain aged 68 Retired, Married and I originate from Liverpool. My Wife and I live in a lovely Detatched Bungalow on the edge of a small village called Forge (Near the market town of Machynlleth) here in lovely West Wales. Our property is here http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-16099311.html

My Wife and I have lots of interests and we are never ever never bored. There are a couple of health issues that are a pain and trying to get our teeth looked after under the NHS system is one of them.

We have to pay for everything as we do not qualify for Pension Credit, so do not get help with Dentistry and the rest because we worked all our life and have a bit too much coming in. Unlike the lazy idle sods that I bet NHS Dentists come accross who don't have to pay jack hit but expect the best treatment of anyone!

If anyone is interested enough they can do a Google search for either Kenny Thain or Kenneth Thain. There you will find that I have done many a Freedom of Information requests to try and find out what the Council are doing with our money. Also complaints to the Council about whatever, Written letters to various Newspapers, and been on other Forums looking for help...mainly DIY.

I realise of course that in doing what I do some will think I am the plonker of the year, but perhaps some think I am the Bees Knees also.

So there you go in the basics of me for what it is worth. Now then...back to who should be doing what and for how mutch!

Best Regards to All

Boozercruiser (Kenny Thain).

Oldbiggles

boozercruiser wrote: »

Recently two remarks where made which I would like to help out with....................

My Wife and I have lots of interests and we are never ever never bored. There are a couple of health issues that are a pain and trying to get our teeth looked after under the NHS system is one of them.

We have to pay for everything as we do not qualify for Pension Credit, so do not get help with Dentistry and the rest because we worked all our life and have a bit too much coming in.
There you will find that I have done many a Freedom of Information requests to try and find out what the Council are doing with our money. Also complaints to the Council about whatever, Written letters to various Newspapers, and been on other Forums looking for help...mainly DIY.

Nice one! Well put. Keep up the good work.

:beer:

boozercruiser

pingua wrote: »

Oh one last one, if I have on going gum problems, what treatment gets done?? I know I am the one there but I am not sure what they do.

Will keep a very close eye tomorrow and try and remember everything.

Hi Pingua:) I take it that you went for your treatment then?

After starting a rumpus here between my mates and I, :rotfl: (your not the first...and you won't be the last!) may I ask how you went on then? Ta!:D

boozercruiser

I had the following E. Mail from Denticares Clinical Director today. What a nice man! I find it very refreshing that Mr. Crockford has replied in this way rather than be annoyed about the airing of this subject as a minority of posters here have been.

For me it is particularly nice when Mr. Crockford says "Hopefully your posting of my previous email, regarding Denticare policy, has been helpful in informing the other members."

Yes Sir, I am certain that it has been and will continue to be helpful here. That is a very good template for general NHS Dental Care from my point of view as a Patient.

The policy document that I posted recently in respect of Denticare's NHS Dental care has taken away my particular concerns, though I will only be 100% sure depending on how my next NHS check up goes of course.

However, I do believe that many hundreds of other NHS Patients are still facing my initial problems every single day, as I guess past and future posters here have and will continue to show.

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Dear Mr Thain,

I had a look at the thread and clearly there has been a lot of discussion on the subject. Hopefully your posting of my previous email, regarding Denticare policy, has been helpful in informing the other members.

I am sure the Channel Four programme will be interesting, however due to one of my other roles I have been requested not to watch it.


Best Wishes,

Paul Crockford

Clinical Director
Denticare Limited
1 Goldington Road, Bedford, MK40 3JY

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Periodontal Treatment

"Denticare policy is that, for NHS patients, Performers should provide all ‘proper and necessary dental care and treatment’, as detailed in the NHS GDS regulations. This includes periodontal treatment.The regulations do not define ‘necessary’ so individual dentists need to make a clinical decision on whether they consider the treatment to be necessary.

If periodontal treatment is considered necessary it must be offered on the NHS. In many practices the service of a hygienist is available. If the hygienist only provides treatment privately:
when periodontal treatment is considered necessary, the patient may be offered treatment with the hygienist as an alternative to treatment on the NHS. the dentist must offer to provide the treatment on the NHS. The patient is free to chose which they prefer.

On some occasions, and in some practices, the hygienist may provide treatment both privately and on the NHS. In these circumstances:the dentist may give the patient the alternative option of seeing the hygienist privately for treatment. however they are not obliged to give the patient the option of seeing the hygienist on the NHS, as they may offer to provide that treatment themselves on the NHS.

Where periodontal treatment is not considered ‘necessary’ by the dentist: if the patient wishes to have periodontal treatment, such as scaling and polishing for cosmetic or other purposes, it should be provided privately.

NHS resources should not be utilised for unnecessary treatment.

boozercruiser

Hello all....I am back....but not to rant and rave or criticise this time! ........................................3rd August 2011.

Because I was getting a bit of soreness around the 'Pre Molar Tooth' I went to see a new temporary Lady Dentist (From Portugal this time) we have here at Machynlleth (West Wales) after previously being seen at Newtown.

She asked me what was the matter...she had a good look, asked me where the soreness was and took an X Ray. She said that the tooth was fine, that there was a little sign of a bit of root next to the Pre Molar and thought that I had bitten on something hard and that had kicked the soreness off. She thought it would improve over a few days, but to come back if there was any further deterioration or concern.

She then said "I will give you just a light Scale and Polish as you have not had any Antibiotics which I usually like people to take who have had a heart valve replaced"
(It just shows you....some Dentists don't think it matters, as been said here.)

So she did that Scale and Polish, talking to me all the time asking if it was hurting me. She even used the rotating rubber thing I remember from the past!

Not once did she say the dreaded words "You have some gum disease and need to see the Hygienist at £28 a pop".

I paid my £12 and left that particular Dentist feeling rather happy and pleased that it all went far better than I expected.

Oh! did I mention...except for when she said "Have you thought about any DENTURES"? I said "NO.....I don't have any difficulty eating thank you". The Lady Dentist said "O.K. but if you do, come back and see me"!

I just have to have a very tiny moan about something, anything, ...or I won't be very happy!

welshdent

Booze the anti biotic cover isn't really an opinion we have it's the guidelines we are given by nice.