Kaupthing Edge CHAPS Transfer

backfoot

genny wrote: »

Assuming if it does end up back in the KE accounts (which Martin seems to think it will), then I assume there will be a sudden run of CHAPS and BACS transfers out again, ended up with a similar mess as now.

Genny,

At one stage quite recently, you were stating that you were about to supplement your savings in KE. I tried to persuade you that it was a very brave decision and that you might want to reconsider.

What led you to the route to panic along with the rest?

djrobe

boknows wrote: »

I concede that I am ignorant of the world of banking and transfers, and whilst I am almost certain that this post is going to be met with disdain, I will make it anyway:

If ING was making chaps payments on Friday (which I think we all concede that it was). Chaps, by its very nature, ar "same day", hence why they were received (by some) on Friday.

The problem is now that the transfers appear to have stopped (or at least dried up significantly). We have reached this conclusion because no transfers were made yesterday (at least not to any contributors to this thread).

My point/question is this: if yesterday ING had devoted their time to processing BACS transfers, these transfers would not arrive until Wednesday at the earliest? (because Bacs tends to take up to 4 working days).

(I appreciate many of you will say that ING should have cleared the Chaps backlog first but given the time delay perhaps tackling some bacs transfers is fair)

Many of you will say "if that is what they are doing why don't they just tell us?” I agree. It is wrist slittingly annoying that we have not heard.

Yes it is annoying that the customer services team appear to either know very little or are giving (given?) conflicting information. But, how many times (in better economic times even) have you encountered a utility company, an insurance company, a bank(?) that has given you first class, well-informed customer service each time you have requested it? I would suggest very little (that is not meant as a cynical statement just a statement of fact/experience).

ING will be no different. I appreciate that, given that the sums/livelihoods at stake the lack of information is even more astounding/disheartening but nevertheless the fact remains ING have just taken over 300,000 customers and some £4 billion of deposits in systems and accounts of which they had little or no knowledge of just 6 days ago. Not to mention the existing ING customers.

At present we have a promise of payment and a “guarantee” that our money is safe. The speculation and reports of fruitless phone calls do nothing but fuel the fear and anxiety.

I made a payment on Monday (processed Tues) and it hasn't been received. That is 8 days. If payments do not start being reported on this thread by Thurs am then I will worry, but at present we need, as ever, to stop panicking. The interest is secure (to those of you to whom that is a concern) and the capital sum will reach you.

In the event that any one of us lost £1 out of this I think we, as a group, are united enough to raise all kinds of hell to get that person their money back but unless that happens bear in mind the following:

1. No one has “lost” their money.
2. People have received their money (albeit on Friday) thus proving that ING are beginning to get to grips with the systems and
3. ING have specifically stated that interest will be covered.

Best wishes to you all.

I agree it will take 3/4 days for BACs so we need to leave things till the end of the week.

bytie_bit

Same old story just words, words don't mean any thing till I get my money. :mad:

zaphod_beeblebrox_2

nomorekids, I always thought CH4 was a cut above the BBC, there was you, an elegant looking/sounding lady on Ch4 and Mr Luke S (LukeLukeEm) an unshaven chap (looking like he needed a bed for the night) on BBC

refusnik

lozzy73 wrote: »

I believe the real reason for the current apparent 'freeze' on payments being made on our behalf is due to the interbank borrowing rate still being too high. In order for KE/ING to honour our withdrawals, they need to borrow money to fund this. If you look at the current LIBOR rates these have in fact increased despite the injection of capital yesterday. Only when banks resume normal lending (which was what the injection of capital over the last week was meant to do) will we see any of our money. If share prices keep rising as they have done today, however, the economic mood may improve resulting in an eventual move back to normality. This is my theory. If it is correct, it perhaps does not seem ethical that we have to wait because the bank does not want to be faced with increased borrowing costs but it is probably sensible in the long run. After all, KE's borrowing costs increased by 400% and we don't want that happening again to any bank as we all lose out. Patience is a long lost virtue we all need to regain now, I guess.

It's a domino stack. If any bank stops honouring occasional withdrawals, their number usually incresases to the point of avalanche and the bank folds in. Panic is instinctive and cannot be calmed down by rational LIBOR trend.

I am amazed at people lulling themselves into belief that their money is "safe" now. Why? Just because it is guaranteed by Dutch government? How is it different from Icelandic government that just recently guaranteed everything, or British one? The governments are broke, they are deeply in debt to guarantee anything (unless you settle for IOUs. to pay you back from your future tax takings.) Not only do they lack resources, they have no experience whatsoever in handling such promises.
They are dominoes - different size and scale but still similarly unstable. If Icelandic guarantee did not teach someone a lesson what should happen for the realisation to settle?

Just like many here, I am in the state of rational panic. It's better not to panic, of course, but if panic is imminent it helps to panic among the first.

lozzy73

ontherun wrote: »

Ohh come on Lozzy!! .......And what if the rate does not fall?? Do you really think that they can hold on to our cash until they deem it convenient to let us have it??

:eek:

Money doesn't grow on trees. The business of a bank is to borrow and lend and to make a margin/profit on money they lend. It will make a profit if the margin it makes on lending to other banks is bigger than the cost it incurs in borrowing from other banks. Banks simply don't have funds lying around, they are invested in assets, in other banks or lent to other banks. On the B/S they may be worth 9bn but the physical pot of cash they put on reserve at the BOE every night could be just a few million. ING therefore, does not have money lying around, it will have to borrow money to fund the the current withdrawals from KE's savings accounts. It simply will not do this at a margin that is higher than the margin it makes from lending to other banks. If it does, it will make a loss. Banks achieve low borrowing rates by having good risk ratings. KE's borrowing costs were extraordinarily high because of their decreasing risk rating. ING's is better meaning they can borrow funds at less cost. This is good but presently the interbank lending rate is still very high and noone is lending to anyone at sensible rates. The whole reason for the collapse of the banking in the last week is because the lending rate has remained high because people are scared to lend to a potential KE or HBOS...hence the injection of capital by Gordon Brown!

ING will of course honour our withdrawals but in time. The sooner the mood picks up and banks start lending to one another at sensible rates, the sooner they will borrow funds at a non-crippling cost and honour our payments. If they simply borrow at a high cost and are not able to lend to another bank at as great a cost, they will make a loss, leading to falling share prices, investor confidence.....and another one bites the dust!

I don't mean to patronise but this is how the banking sector works and I think it is therefore a plausible reason why payments have not yet been made (that together with the huge reconciliation exercise involved in merging bank assets/funds and running settlements through parallel systems at the Treasury to account for the injection). Nothing sinister, just economics.

djrobe

MSE_Martin wrote: »

The Problems with Chaps

Hi folks, I've had a number of emails all asking what can be done on this...

First let me clip the information from the Safe Savings guide (which we are checking and updating three times a day, and is the prime place to check for updates on this

"Did you attempt to transfer cash out before it went bust?

A large number of MoneySavers are worried that savings they attempted to transfer from Kaupthing to other accounts before it went bust, either by BACS or CHAPS, now appears to be missing from both Kaupthing and the destination account.

We have spoken to both the FSCS and APACS, the payments organisation, and both are very confident this money will be repatriated to your Kaupthing (now ING Direct) accounts.

There is no final confirmation on why the money is currently floating about the ether, but first signs are that the CHAPS system itself is still working fine and the money is still residing with Kaupthing.

APACS also said that any charges for CHAPS transfers (usually around £20) are deducted from the money that is transferred, not actually charged on top as fees. Therefore when the money gets reunited with you, they would expect it to be the full amount."

I can more than understand peoples concern on this. Yet it is only a couple of working days since a forced bank takeover crossing countries. Kaupthing (ING) has specifically said it is working on the back log and both APACs and Kaupthing have said the money won't be lost.

Yet its perfectly plausible that this will unfortunately take a few more days. Many people have asked me to "put pressure on". I won't be doing that yet for two reasons, firstly in these strange times press pressure isn't the most effective thing and secondly I feel it is simply too early to do this and we need to give them a little time in this more than exceptional scenario to sort it out. By trying to push too early, I simply limit any impact we can have in the long run.

While it will be disconcerting, the most important thing to do is print out all records of your transfer (if there are any) and your statement details and hold on. It's important to remember the government brokered and sorted this deal to put savers cash in ING direct, so we must assume it did its due diligence and ING is a safe (as anywhere in current climates) place to have cash for the time being.

For those people who havent had their cash sorted by the beginning of next week, I (or MSE Dan) will happily speak to ING about this issue in more detail and see if there's any route we can set up to try and help sort things out more quickly.

Kind regards

Martin .

We all need to remember Martins quote on this before getting too worried! We need to wait until early next week to give ING a chance to sort things out. I'm sure BACS payments will have started coming through by then. Dont think i'd know where to start!

R4CHY_3

I transferred two sums of money on 7th from mine and my husbands KE accounts by Chaps. We are buying a house and this money is our deposit. We are due to complete before the end of the month so we need the money desperately otherwise our house sale will fall through. The other part of our deposit was with Icesave so I've had to beg First Direct to give me an even bigger mortgage as it could be months before that materialises.

I emailed KE last week to say I needed the money and received no reply and have not been able to get through on the 'phone yet. I've seen the update on the KE website regarding payments and have kept up to date with the posts on this thread but still don't feel reassured. I have now emailed KE again as my solicitor will need the deposit money soon and I haven't dared tell the seller that I've got a money problem as the sale has already fallen through twice due to the dreaded chain.

They say buying a house is one of the most stressful things you can do but believe me it makes it all so much worse when you haven't got the money you need anymore and you don't know when it will be given back.

Sorry for the rant, I'm just totally fed up..._pale_

zaphod_beeblebrox_2

For what its worth, on Friday it was @13:40 the first poster announced a successful transfer to linked a/c

ES10

Look folks, the government have constantly said that no saver will loose a penny (and for once I believe them) Look what they did with Icesave savers when Iceland renaged on the compensation and they didn't have to as the savers were not covered by the FSA.

Do you really think that after engineering this takeover they are just going to walk away from people who have lost their money (and I don't think we will). Of course not, it would cause mass panic again with a run on banks.

I am just annoyed at the way we are being kept in the dark and the fact that the money was taken from our accounts ....they could have put a notice on saying no withdrawals allowed as they were in talks re a takeover with ING and avoided all this mess. I for one would have sat back let the takeover happen and then withdrawn my money if I felt it was better elsewhere.

There is also enough of us in the same situation to make sure that we are heard if we have to.

So come on people lets support each other - Power to the people yeah!!