Energy Prices--A Brokers View--

Cardew

c0113tt3 wrote: »

I personally think, its very good of energy brokers giving another perspective on the board, and appreciative of it. I certainly do not know enough of energy markets etc.. to comment myself.

But, what I would like to say. Cardew I have the greatest respect for you, but lately you appear almost aggressive. By all means discuss and even challenge, as you do know quite a lot yourself, but calm down a little. The brokers have come on here to inform of their point of view, and it's not as though he has to or needs to, and just wishes to point a few things out even if you may disagree with it.

As for board troll comments m8, its time that was laid to rest now, dont you think? If anything its making you look the bad guy.

c0113tt3

Fair comment for the most part and I do understand your points.

However IMO opinion this broker came here to 'push' his association and it is little more than a subtle form of spam.

Bear in mind he posted that I "don't have a clue what I am talking about" which gave rise to my aggressive retalliation; possibly, I concede, over-aggresive - but that is my style I am afraid.

As for the Board troll comments! He follows everyone(not just me) around MSE and posts nothing but 'digs' to anyone who has incurred his wrath. His contributions to this thread are absoulutely typical - read them and consider what they contribute to the thread. Read his other posts and see what they contribute. Surely he is quite simply a troll by any definition?

c0113tt3

In reply to cardew, fair comment m8

But from our very early private messages (when i first came to the board) we did give clue to our positions to each other. You kindly pointed myself in the correct direction, a helpful reminder This is just myself kindly and respectfully returning the advice

As for anyone else who posts on the board, inc trolls as you describe, well, all anyone can do is point each other in the right direction I am hopeful that, not only just me and you have read this

Kind regards

Oh, I have read them, quite time consuming, but I have read them, its time to end it, as noone is actually winning, its actually grades of loosing.

espresso

c0113tt3 wrote: »

Oh, I have read them, quite time consuming, but I have read them, its time to end it, as noone is actually winning, its actually grades of loosing.

The best way to end it is by using the troll filter (Forum Ignore List) because they deliberately post in a way intended to anger other posters and to cause maximum drama. If everyone ignores them, they will eventually go away!

fatlad1971

Cardew wrote: »

You are also too busy I assume to concede that your post #3 about European prices is a complete nonsense.

The Board troll is depending on you to justify his intervention!!

You really are out of your depth!

you supplied a website as evidence , the data available on there clearly stated the figures i used. The table from this website is below


What does the European industry pay for its energy?
These charts show the average electricity and gas prices for the industry.
Ranked from least to most expensive EU member state.
– ELECTRICITY CONSUMPTION –
– GAS CONSUMPTION – € per kWh electricity
Consumption: 2000 MWh/year Maximum demand: 500 kW, annual load: 4000 hours. Luxembourg: 50% power reduction during hours of heavy loading. Incl.taxes & duties.
Effective: June, '08 € per kWh electricity
Consumption: 24000 MWh/year Maximum demand: 4000 kW, annual load: 6000 hours. Luxembourg: 50% power reduction during hours of heavy loading. Incl.taxes & duties.
Effective: June, '08
€ per kWh gas
Consumption: 418.6 GJ/year 418.6 gigajoule ≈ 116MWh ≈ 11000m3. Incl.taxes & duties.
Effective: June, '08 € per kWh gas
Consumption: 41.86 TJ/year 41.86 terajoule ≈ 11.6GWh ≈ 1.1 million m3. Incl.taxes & duties.
Effective: June, '08 Bulgaria0.0798
Estonia0.0581
Estonia0.0275
Estonia0.0263 Latvia0.0803Latvia0.0675Bulgaria0.0284Bulgaria0.0286 Sweden0.0820Sweden0.0719Latvia0.0337Latvia0.0292 Estonia0.0831Bulgaria0.0764Lithuania0.0365Lithuania0.0333 Lithuania0.0840France0.0789Czech Republic0.0411Portugal0.0353 Finland0.0896Malta0.0802Romania0.0458Czech Republic0.0354 France0.0911Lithuania0.0822Luxembourg0.0468Belgium0.0361 Poland0.0989Finland0.0837Belgium0.0506Spain0.0374 Greece0.1028Greece0.0863Poland0.0509Denmark0.0391 Spain0.1050Poland0.0894Hungary0.0518France0.0419 Czech Republic0.1174Spain0.0906Spain0.0531Slovenia0.0437 Portugal0.1174Czech Republic0.1031Portugal0.0536Poland0.0437 Slovenia0.1175Portugal0.1048France0.0559Romania0.0438 Malta0.1225Slovenia0.1057Italy0.0613Luxembourg0.0441 Luxembourg0.1370Netherlands0.1093Austria0.0670Finland0.0462 Austria0.1464Romania0.1162Sweden0.0685Italy0.0462 United Kingdom0.1487United Kingdom0.1179United Kingdom0.0706Netherlands0.0542 Belgium0.1499Austria0.1218Ireland0.0719Hungary0.0560 Slovakia0.1505Belgium0.1221Germany0.0723Sweden0.0572 Hungary0.1512Hungary0.1316Netherlands0.0837Austria0.0577 Romania0.1530Slovakia0.1369Denmark0.0903United Kingdom0.0597 Denmark0.1539Germany0.1515Sloveniano dataGermany0.0631 Netherlands0.1593Cyprus0.1572Finlandno dataIrelandno data Germany0.1654Ireland0.1594Maltano dataMaltano data Ireland0.1660Italy0.1668Greeceno dataGreeceno data Cyprus0.1663Denmarkno dataSlovakiano dataSlovakiano data Italy0.2032Luxembourgno dataCyprusno dataCyprusno data
SOURCE: Energy.eu, based on Eurostat December '07 data.


This is what you offered as evidence , it CLEARLY shows prices are much lower in France.

I have marked the UK and France in red for you as you seem to have a problem interpreting this data you offer as evidence.

The link is here look at prices , its simple http://www.energy.eu/#domestic

Are you still trying to say that energy prices in the UK are amongst the cheapest in the EU ?


I suppose we have some of the cheapest petrol prices as well :rotfl:

Cardew

fatlad1971 wrote: »

you supplied a website as evidence , the data available on there clearly stated the figures i used. The table from this website is below

I have marked the UK and France in red for you as you seem to have a problem interpreting this data you offer as evidence.

The link is here look at prices , its simple http://www.energy.eu/#domestic

Are you still trying to say that energy prices in the UK are amongst the cheapest in the EU ?

Fatlad,

Have you really not realised you have cut and pasted Industrial Electricity prices in a thread about domestic gas prices?
This is what I posted:

See: http://www.energy.eu/#domestic

In June 2008 for a consumption of 2000 cubic metres(approx UK average) the price of a kWh in Euros was UK = 0.048, France = 0.063, Germany = 0.082

You will note the the UK has the cheapest gas prices in Western Europe EEC countries.

This was your reply:

According to this data you are offering as evidence it says the average price of gas in the UK is 7.06 pence per kWh and France is currently 5.59 pence per kWh, Also the French pay no standing charge, so i am afraid you are quite clearly wrong.

So in this thread that you started and referred to domestic gas prices, you now cut and paste some data for industrial electrical prices for consumption of 24,000MWh(note: not kWh) as some sort of proof I am wrong.

You even have the audacity to say I have a problem interpreting data!!!

So yes I am still saying that we have some of the cheapest domestic gas prices in Europe. - Certainly the cheapest in Western Europe.

Now why not admit you are wrong?

fatlad1971

Cardew wrote: »

Fatlad,

Have you really not realised you have cut and pasted Industrial Electricity prices in a thread about domestic gas prices?
This is what I posted:



This was your reply:




So in this thread that you started and referred to domestic gas prices, you now cut and paste some data for industrial electrical prices for consumption of 24,000MWh(note: not kWh) as some sort of proof I am wrong.

You even have the audacity to say I have a problem interpreting data!!!

So yes I am still saying that we have some of the cheapest domestic gas prices in Europe. - Certainly the cheapest in Western Europe.

Now why not admit you are wrong?

From your evidence

Average amount in euro per one kilowatt-hour of electricity for domestic consumers Incl.taxes & duties.

Effective: June, '08

France 0.157
UK 0.166

So is French domestic electricity cheaper ? NO
HOW many UK companies have increased their domestic tariffs since June?

30 July - British Gas
Gas up 35%, electricity up 9%
21 Aug - Eon
Gas up 26%, electricity up 16%
21 Aug - Scottish & Southern
Gas up 29.2%, electricity up 19.2%
29 Aug - Scottish Power
Gas up 34%, electricity up 9%
29 Aug - Npower
Gas up 26%, electricity up 14%



French energy increases are capped by the French government at around 5%

ours is not

case closed

one last interesting point cardew

this site you are offering as gospel is not an official EU website , it is not run by the EU but by private individuals.It is not linked to the EU in any way except this group is based in Europe and has a .eu domain name.

May I suggest you subscribe to the herron reports because this data you are offering as evidence is flawed on many levels.
but I'm sure a man of your intellect already knows this

Cardew

fatlad1971 wrote: »

From your evidence

Average amount in euro per one kilowatt-hour of gas for domestic consumers.Incl.taxes & duties. Effective: June, '08

France 0.157
UK 0.166

I am not being facetious, but are you dyslexic?

France 0.157 and UK 0.166 is completely and utterly incorrect, wrong, false mistaken.



The gas prices for domestic customers from that table(my evidence) are:

UK = 0.048 Euros

France = 0.063 Euros

Note Gas and not electricity and Euros not pence!

This conversation is about gas remember? You can't surely get it so wrong every time can you!

I am afraid your input is simply unbelievable for a self proclaimed expert on prices.

Cardew

Fatboy

Just to refresh your memory. You wrote in your opening post:

The price of gas in Europe is largely linked to oil and the UK and European energy markets are interacting more by the year, this has had a knock-on effect on the price of gas in the UK. The main driver of high gas prices in the UK is lack of storage capacity.

In reply I wrote:

Firstly if "The main driver of high gas prices in the UK is lack of storage capacity." can you explain why France and Germany with 122 days and 99 days storage, against UK with 13 days, have higher gas prices than UK?

See: http://www.energy.eu/#domestic

In June 2008 for a consumption of 2000 cubic metres(approx UK average) the price of a kWh in Euros was UK = 0.048, France = 0.063, Germany = 0.082

You will note the the UK has the cheapest gas prices in Western Europe EEC countries.

Since that exchange you have misread Euros for Pence, Transposed Industrial gas prices for domestic gas prices, and in your latest faux pas misread electricity prices for gas prices.

It wouldn't be so bad if you simply admitted you have made mistake after mistake, but you accuse me of being unable to interpret the tables in the link I gave you.

So the subject under discussion is domestic gas - not any form of industrial prices and not electricity - is that quite clear?

DS-2

fatlad1971 wrote: »

Hello All,
If you are a business customer use a established Consultant / broker and make sure they are accredited with the UIA ( http://www.uia.org.uk/ ) . Using a member of the UIA will mean your broker works to a high standard and you have full recourse if they don’t do a good job. Your consultant will also have in-depth knowledge of the market and also the pitfalls of certain suppliers.

LOL - at least you admit to having more than a passing interest in supporting that organisation; your company is a member and they have a seat on the council. Given that you sat with (but didn't admit to speaking to :rotfl: ) the shadow energy secretary, it can't be hurting your profile.

Out of (morbid) interest, I had a look at he UIA website. In particular, I had a look at their code of practice. I was intrigued to see that the composition of the disciplinary committee is very vague - though I am actually giving them the benefit of the doubt that it is very vague, because what is written is very clear.

When a UIA member is hauled in front of the disciplinary committee they are able to select three members of that committee from a list of "experienced and knowledgeable people from the Energy Industry". The Chair[person] of that committee will be selected from one of the three names the member has selected.

Interestingly enough, the party complaining about the UIA member is not given the same "luxury" - clearly, being a UIA member does have its advantages.

Complaints procedures are onerous enough without creating an obviously tainted panel to hear the complaint against the UIA member. If the UIA member has nothing to fear, why are they given the opportunity to select members of the disciplinary committe? What is so abhorrent about an independent panel that would lead an organisation to grant a privilege to a member, when in so doing they sacrifice the legitimacy of the process (IMO)?

The UIA is clearly a trade association acting in the best interests of its members. That view is clearly supported by the UIA's own "Articles of Association".

Interestingly, the UIA's website does not include the FAQs;
"why should I choose to use a UIA member?"
"what does the UIA do?"

I am of course guessing when I say, perhaps that reflects that it is a trade organisation promoting itself to potential members, rather than focusing on helping its members to develop their business.

I can see no reaon why a UIA member offers anything more than the non member who has been recommended to me.

As I said, "very vague".

fatlad1971

DS-2 wrote: »

LOL - at least you admit to having more than a passing interest in supporting that organisation; your company is a member and they have a seat on the council. Given that you sat with (but didn't admit to speaking to :rotfl: ) the shadow energy secretary, it can't be hurting your profile.

Out of (morbid) interest, I had a look at he UIA website. In particular, I had a look at their code of practice. I was intrigued to see that the composition of the disciplinary committee is very vague - though I am actually giving them the benefit of the doubt that it is very vague, because what is written is very clear.

When a UIA member is hauled in front of the disciplinary committee they are able to select three members of that committee from a list of "experienced and knowledgeable people from the Energy Industry". The Chair[person] of that committee will be selected from one of the three names the member has selected.

Interestingly enough, the party complaining about the UIA member is not given the same "luxury" - clearly, being a UIA member does have its advantages.

Complaints procedures are onerous enough without creating an obviously tainted panel to hear the complaint against the UIA member. If the UIA member has nothing to fear, why are they given the opportunity to select members of the disciplinary committe? What is so abhorrent about an independent panel that would lead an organisation to grant a privilege to a member, when in so doing they sacrifice the legitimacy of the process (IMO)?

The UIA is clearly a trade association acting in the best interests of its members. That view is clearly supported by the UIA's own "Articles of Association".

Interestingly, the UIA's website does not include the FAQs;
"why should I choose to use a UIA member?"
"what does the UIA do?"

I am of course guessing when I say, perhaps that reflects that it is a trade organisation promoting itself to potential members, rather than focusing on helping its members to develop their business.

I can see no reaon why a UIA member offers anything more than the non member who has been recommended to me.

As I said, "very vague".

To be fair they are very good and valid points
Ive never really looked at it from this perspective and i tend to agree with your analysis .
This is something i will look at getting changed