Gas Safety Certificate out of date by 6 weeks...where do I stand??

tbs624

The LL/LA is supposed to issue the gas safety certificate to tenants *before* they move in. After that for subsequent checks they are supposed to give the certificate to an existing T within 28 days of the check/service being carried out. So, even if the current one *is* due to expire now they should still have shown you that certificate before you moved in.

The LL is also legally required to retain copies of the Certificates for two years - if s/he was reported to the HSE or the local Council and there was a gap in his/her records s/he could be prosecuted.

See here, here here here and here for a number of LLs who have been prosecuted by the HSE for failing to comply with the gas safety regs.

ginvzt

tbs624 wrote: »

The LL/LA is supposed to issue the gas safety certificate to tenants *before* they move in. After that for subsequent checks they are supposed to give the certificate to an existing T within 28 days of the check/service being carried out. So, even if the current one *is* due to expire now they should still have shown you that certificate before you moved in.

The LL is also legally required to retain copies of the Certificates for two years - if s/he was reported to the HSE or the local Council and there was a gap in his/her records s/he could be prosecuted.

See here, here here here and here for a number of LLs who have been prosecuted by the HSE for failing to comply with the gas safety regs.

Believe me, I know what they should have done, but they didn't - we have a very good relationship with our LA, where if we don't quote the law, we don't get what we ask. Like the issue with LL address I mentioned earlier. It is fine - we are getting used to this all. We are hopefully moving the house soon. Unfortunately, the house we found is with the same LA, although different office. At the moment we are mentally preparing for the battle to get the deposit back

RainMaker_2

I cannot understand any LL not getting a gas safety inspection done - because the consequences are so dire it just isn't worth trying to save £ 80.

But neither can I understand those that jump up and down when it's a week or two late. The "Mark I boiler eyeball test" is a pretty good indicator, i.e, brand new, old and knackered.

There have been 57 deaths in 13 years from CO poisoning in the private rental sector (4 / year). http://www.co-gassafety.co.uk/stats.html Given that there are about 2,500,000 privately rented properties in the UK, the odds of being killed in a rented property by CO is smaller than that of being killed on a plane.

Just to reiterate - I'm not condoning a LL failure to obtain a gas safety certificate. Merely putting the risk's into perperspective for those that start to panic.

mchale

RainMaker wrote: »

I cannot understand any LL not getting a gas safety inspection done - because the consequences are so dire it just isn't worth trying to save £ 80.

But neither can I understand those that jump up and down when it's a week or two late. The "Mark I boiler eyeball test" is a pretty good indicator, i.e, brand new, old and knackered.

There have been 57 deaths in 13 years from CO poisoning in the private rental sector (4 / year). http://www.co-gassafety.co.uk/stats.html Given that there are about 2,500,000 privately rented properties in the UK, the odds of being killed in a rented property by CO is smaller than that of being killed on a plane.

Just to reiterate - I'm not condoning a LL failure to obtain a gas safety certificate. Merely putting the risk's into perperspective for those that start to panic.

It would be interesting to know how many of those deaths were from old gas fires & how many are from modern well fitted combi/condensing boilers, I would guess nearly all are from gas fires.

tbs624

RainMaker wrote: »

.......But neither can I understand those that jump up and down when it's a week or two late. The "Mark I boiler eyeball test" is a pretty good indicator, i.e, brand new, old and knackered....

not the point Rainmaker, not least because you can have a newish boiler giving off CO if it has been poorly fitted, and of course the gas safety certificate has to cover all the LLs gas appliances.

The law states quite clearly that LLs must have a *current* gas safety certificate for their property and *current*, funnily enough, means one that has not expired. There is not a choice, not an option, not a "pick your own date" for LLs, any more than there is for late filers with HMRC or late payers of car tax.

RainMaker wrote: »

There have been 57 deaths in 13 years from CO poisoning in the private rental sector (4 / year). http://www.co-gassafety.co.uk/stats.html Given that there are about 2,500,000 privately rented properties in the UK, the odds of being killed in a rented property by CO is smaller than that of being killed on a plane.

There's plenty more interesting info on that site, not least the quote:

"On average, Carbon Monoxide poisoning kills 40 people per year and injures around 300. These figures are almost certainly the tip of an iceberg as there is no automatic testing for CO of people who die suddenly and people who have symptoms of CO have great difficulty obtaining a blood or breath test. Also, The National Gas Emergency Service has no equipment to test appliances or the air in the home for CO."

RainMaker wrote: »

.Just to reiterate - I'm not condoning a LL failure to obtain a gas safety certificate. Merely putting the risk's into perperspective for those that start to panic.

Glad to read the first bit, but it's not about people starting to "panic" - its about a T having every right to expect a LL to honour his *legal obligations*. You can almost guarantee that these errant LLs are the very same ones who would jump up and down if a tenant "forgot" to pay his rent on time.

tbs624

mchale wrote: »

It would be interesting to know how many of those deaths were from old gas fires & how many are from modern well fitted combi/condensing boilers, I would guess nearly all are from gas fires.

AFIAA statistics in reports produced by the HSE in previous years show that boilers cause a higher proportion of fatal and non fatal casualties than do gas fires.

The Gas Safety Regs make no distinction though - doesn't matter whether its an old gas fire or a shiny new condensing boiler - if it's a gas appliance then the LL owes a clear duty of care to his T and has to get the appropriate checks/service done and produce the paperwork to show that he has done so. Annually, with copies kept for 2 years - no excuses.

Have a look here and here for two more cases involving prosecutions over faulty boilers/failure to comply with gas safety regs, one of them relating to a £2 million property.

TJ27

tbs624 wrote: »

AFIAA statistics in reports produced by the HSE in previous years show that boilers cause a higher proportion of fatal and non fatal casualties than do gas fires.

When I was studying, I seem to remember being told that roughly half of the CO deaths were not from gas boilers, nor were they from gas fires. They were from solid fuel appliances, mainly open coal fires. My mate's grandmother died in this way not too long ago. Yet there are few regulations relating to coal fires.

Edit: Actually there's a nice table in the link which shows how many solid fuel deaths there have been. It is indeed roughly half. When you think about how many gas appliances there must be compared to how many solid fuel, it just goes to show how much safer gas is.

I think that the perspective point is a valid one. Somewhere in the order of 25,000 people die each year because they are too cold. But if somebody posts on here saying that their flat is chilly many posters will advise them to grin and bear it, or buy a jumper.

Of course the LL must provide a gas cert but councils and HSE are very unlikely to prosecute as long as one is obtained fairly quickly after the tenant asks for one.

tbs624

TJ27 wrote: »

When I was studying, I seem to remember being told that roughly half of the CO deaths were not from gas boilers, nor were they from gas fires. They were from solid fuel appliances, mainly open coal fires. My mate's grandmother died in this way not too long ago. Yet there are few regulations relating to coal fires.

Edit: Actually there's a nice table in the link which shows how many solid fuel deaths there have been. It is indeed roughly half. When you think about how many gas appliances there must be compared to how many solid fuel, it just goes to show how much safer gas is.

I'd agree with you that there are risks from solid fuel too. However, the figures to which I was referring were from a report purely on natural gas/LPG CO incidents - you'll also probably recall from your studies that faults in such cases include installation defects, ventilation faults, terminal siting, appliance in need of servicing, appliance serviced but inadequately and so on. The statistics highlight the particular seriousness of the effects of CO poisoning for children under 10 and for elderly adults.

TJ27 wrote: »

I think that the perspective point is a valid one. Somewhere in the order of 25,000 people die each year because they are too cold. But if somebody posts on here saying that their flat is chilly many posters will advise them to grin and bear it, or buy a jumper.

So if they are posting on here that their property is "chilly" they are aware of the problem and what they personally can do to help themselves. Yes, by the time hypothermia has gripped you would be unable to help yourself, but prior to that generally you will have known for some time that your home is cold because of inadequate insulation/insufficient heating. Some of those deaths due to cold will not be due to heating inadequacies within a property but due to poverty and an inability on the T's part to meet the heating costs. (Any T whose property does have inadequate heating can ask the Council for an HHSRS assessment, as you'll know).

Let's remember that CO is the "invisible killer" - for the majority of those casualties/fatalities they may possibly only have experienced flu-like symptoms or headaches and attributed them to other causes.

TJ27 wrote: »

Of course the LL must provide a gas cert but councils and HSE are very unlikely to prosecute as long as one is obtained fairly quickly after the tenant asks for one.

We're back there again TJ27 - it is the LL's duty to provide the gas safety checks/maintenance & the certificate: the law does not say that it is the T's responsibility to chase it. That's for good reason - the LL & T relationship is not an equal one, and many Ts would not feel at ease pursuing the matter. How many times on here do we read a post saying "I don't want to make a fuss/upset my LL/ get served notice" ? Worse still, some T's are not even aware of either the law nor the potential risks of CO poisoning.

As I said before, if the LL can't log that annual date every year & comply with the law then s/he should quite simply find work more suited to his/her inability to time manage & inability to take obligations under a legal duty of care seriously.

Here's a LL who apparently said he couldn't afford to get his gas checks done - he's now residing at the taxpayers' expense in one of Her Majesty's "sheltered accommodation" sites.

TJ27

tbs624 wrote: »

We're back there again TJ27 - it is the LL's duty to provide the gas safety checks/maintenance & the certificate: the law does not say that it is the T's responsibility to chase it.

Here's a LL who apparently said he couldn't afford to get his gas checks done - he's now residing at the taxpayers' expense in one of Her Majesty's "sheltered accommodation" sites.

I think most tenants know the law regarding gas safety certs, although I do come across some who don't. (More worryingly, I sometimes come across landlords and even letting agents who have no clue about their basic responsibilities!) However, it is also a requirement that enforcement of the law must be proportionate, fair, etc. Councils will certainly act regarding missing certificates but you just aren't going to secure a prosecution on the basis that an appliance is missing a CP12 for a fortnight or so. It does need to be quite a serious offence, or several offences over a period of time.

Your link demonstrates this quite nicely. Note the use of the words "persistently ignored" in the text. Custodial sentences and very large fines for the worst landlords are becoming much more common though.

(I'm told by some fella in my department that cabon monoxide isn't poisonous. Apparently it's technically not a poison, it's an asphyxiant.)

clutton_2

""I'm told by some fella in my department that cabon monoxide isn't poisonous. Apparently it's technically not a poison, it's an asphyxiant.)

[EMAIL="abuse@moneysavingexpert.com?subject=Reporting%20post%20http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.html?p=18915667"][/EMAIL] but it still kills you whatever you call it