TDS Case Lost !!! - Going to Appeal

Bungarm2001

tbs624 wrote: »

Pru - it's here:

"You have duties under the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 to arrange maintenance by a CORGI-registered installer for all pipe work, appliances and flues, which you own and have provided for your tenants use. You must also arrange for an annual gas safety check to be carried out every 12 months by a CORGI-registered installer. You must keep a record of the safety check for 2 years and issue a copy to each existing tenant within 28 days of the check being completed and issue a copy to any new tenants before they move in." (My highlighting)

Source:http://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/domestic/faqlandlord.htm

Certainly the certs from British Gas et al also have it highlighted somewhere on the certificate itself. No doubt there will be heated discussions from some quarters on the exact interpretation of that wording, but my understanding is that it means the gas safety cert itself.

Clutton, Bungarm, Barnaby Bear - your views?

Well, to me it's black and white...I keep ALL the gas certs for all our properties going back almost ten years. You could argue I suppose that the tenant should have copies of the last two, (from reading that) but I have never contemplated doing this, I only give a copy of the current one mainly because I don't think it's neccessary, and the outgoing tenant invariably loses the previous copy anyway.

By each tenant, I presume they mean 'one of the tenants.' Some houses we have 4 tenants (students living as one household) and I definitely do not give each a copy, rather the copy is for the whole household.

Incidently, in all my years of letting, I have NEVER been asked for a gas cert by a tenant. In fact, the overwhelming majority of my tenants are mildly surprised when I give them one.

Captain_Mainwaring_2

Prancer wrote: »

That's great advice, thank you, I'll certainly make contact with them as someone needs to define this law. IMO it's now giving landlords the message that they only need to protect the deposit when they have to and I don't think that was the intention of the legislation.

Also forget to mention, as a direct result of our claim we have been served with a Section 21 by our LL (no rent arrears etc.).

What did you expect? him to drop you around a bunch of flowers?

This law was flawed from inception and only encourages money grabbers to seek benefit.

Any fine levied should not be for the benefit of the tenant, but for the benefit of the scheme itself.

N79

OP please can you post the full details of your case (where it was heard, who it was heard before, claim number etc) so that we can add your case to the list of known outcomes.

Many thanks.

tbs624

Bungarm2001 wrote: »

Well, to me it's black and white...I keep ALL the gas certs for all our properties going back almost ten years. You could argue I suppose that the tenant should have copies of the last two, (from reading that) but I have never contemplated doing this, I only give a copy of the current one mainly because I don't think it's neccessary, and the outgoing tenant invariably loses the previous copy anyway.

Thanks for responding. I agree - it's not the most well-constructed sentence from the HSE - my understanding was that it was saying:

1. LL keeps copies for 2 years (but I think many of us do keep them for longer).
2. if the property is already let, then tenant has to receive cert within 28 days of check
3. a new tenant mus be given the cert before they move in.

(I can't follow the reasoning on the 28-day bit because in most cases the gas safety certif is produced on the spot, at the time of the check unless the LL is slow to settle bills with the CORGi bloke.)

Bungarm2001 wrote: »

By each tenant, I presume they mean 'one of the tenants.' Some houses we have 4 tenants (students living as one household) and I definitely do not give each a copy, rather the copy is for the whole household.

I'd agree there - would give a copy to each tenant if on separate contracts though. Maybe it would be easier if, as with Holiday Lets, it was displayed on the wall - look v attractive, alongside EPC, evidence of LL insurance, permission to let from mortgagor etc.....;);)

Bungarm2001 wrote: »

Incidently, in all my years of letting, I have NEVER been asked for a gas cert by a tenant. In fact, the overwhelming majority of my tenants are mildly surprised when I give them one.

I think that's quite a common experience amongst decent LLs - whether enough tenants don't actually know that there should be one, or whether they do know and they are concerned that if they start asking for such things they'll get off on the wrong foot?

Bungarm2001

"I'd agree there - would give a copy to each tenant if on separate contracts though. Maybe it would be easier if, as with Holiday Lets, it was displayed on the wall - look v attractive, alongside EPC, evidence of LL insurance, permission to let from mortgagor etc.....;)"

I LOOOVE IT!!! What a cracking idea!! :T As long as the colours didn't clash with me beautiful magnolia paintwork!!:rotfl: Who knows, some bright jobsworth might even think that one up for future legislation. I can just imagine the rules and regs that would come along with it...:D

Incidently, following along those lines somewhat, we have started leaving a 'house file' in each property, particularly the student lets. We put everything in there, gas certs, instruction manuals, etc including...and I kid you not...how the water saving flushing system works on the new loos.

neverdespairgirl

Prancer wrote: »

he didn't have to follow those as they did not come from a higher court.

He did though give us permission to appeal saying it would be in the public interest as it's wrong that so many judges disagree and give different verdicts. He also admitted he could be wrong on his interpretation of the law.

We are definitely going to appeal, does anyone know of any appeals so far ?

I don't know of any, no. I've chatted to other people about this, and no-one knows of any appeals yet heard.

The cases I know of are other first instance decisions, and are not binding on another judge.

OH said there were other examples in employment law of, in effect, a penalty against one party for failing to comply, such as the requirement to provide written terms and conditions within a certain no. of days.

neverdespairgirl

chappers wrote: »

You will lose again and this time you will be liable for the costs, I agree that LLs shouldn't be able to get away with this, but think seriously you will probably be throwing good money after bad.

I really don't think you can give defininte advice like this!

Yes, there is a risk the OP will lose on appeal. But there is no clear view I've come across to say that the law will be interpreted in the way the judge did in this case - there are two views.

neverdespairgirl

Premier wrote: »

LLs are human like everyone else - and yes they like everyone else make the odd mistake now and again. But LLs, even the reasonable ones, are only reasonable when they are being treated reasonably by their tenants. .

There is nothign reasonable about several breaches of an LL's legal obligations.

clutton_2

i keep all my CORGIs in one file, and have many going back 8 years - and the tenants get a copy from the CORGI guy on the day of inspection. tenants rarely leave the original copy behind, so i often need to do a photocopy for the next tenant.

i have only been asked once for a CORGI cert by a prospective tenant who had had a rubbish LL before me.

this deposit legislation is very poorly written - hence all the who-ha about what it means.

this judge seems to have interpreted the letter of the law - and he cannot be faulted for that. i guess we have to wait for a higher courts decision

Premier_2

neverdespairgirl wrote: »

There is nothign reasonable about several breaches of an LL's legal obligations.

If you read my post and the context in which it was meant, you'll see that what I was saying is that were any dispute occurs, the reasonable thing to do is first discuss that matter with the other party, not go running off to the law courts or other authorities (e.g. Environmental Health)