TDS Case Lost !!! - Going to Appeal

Loretta

tbs624 wrote: »

Prancer - have you spoken to Shelter about any of this, or the local Law Centre (if there is one) or Tenancy Relations Officer? *Sometimes* there can be support for those who are "testing" the law for the wider benefit of the public. It may also be worth talking to the Community Legal Service http://www.clsdirect.org.uk/


Also, I have said before, but anyone concerned about the way this legislation is being applied and/or is failing to protect the interests of either LLs or Tenants should contact their MP http://www.theyworkforyou.com/ and the Housing Minister. The Govt is currently reviewing the private rentals sector so it's a good time to highlight the practical difficulties arising from the legislation & its interpretation within the courts.

I don't know where yoy live, in Brighton there si a Housing Advice centre, staffed by law students or recently qualified law students, graduates, not sure and they know the law inside out and are really the experts. Is there somewhere like that where you live, if not Shelter. This law is badly done, and someone has to test it for the good of everyone so I am sure someone or one of these sort of organisations will finance it to get a definitive answer.

If the law says the Lanldord should place the deposit into a sheme and notify the tenant within 14 days, that is what they should do.

It is completely unacceptable for the landlord to try it on and when 'caught out' when the tenant finds out what their rights are, usually at the end of the tenancy or when there is a dispute, either through this wonderful site so full of information and support or from some other source the Landlord can just say 'Oh dear got caught' and rush to put this right and then get away with it is not right.

A Landlord who does this is not honest and you would have to wonder if they are doing anything else properly, ie. paying tax, doing the gas certificate ets.

The government have produces a very unclear bad law, someone has to test it and get a clear answer, I would think that your case is simple enough to appeal and clear this up once and for all.

I hate all this ducking and diving and trying to get away with things, if people did what they are supposed to do both sides would do well.

tbs624

Prancer wrote: »

. ......Also forget to mention, as a direct result of our claim we have been served with a Section 21 by our LL (no rent arrears etc.).

Again, this is an eventuality that should have been foreseen by the drafters of this legislation and it's going to happen on a regular basis. An extension to that proviso about no S21 being servable whilst the deposit is unprotected could so easily have been extended as "no S21 can be served at all during any tenancy where you as LL don't get that deposit registered within 14days, full stop". I reckon that here would soon be a rush to comply then .

Incidentally the subject of retaliatory evictions is one that the CAB have been working on - tenants *must* highlight all these related issues to their MPs and the Housing Minister, otherwise all we will read in the press are the Govt or ARLA sponsored releases about how marvellous the response to the legislation has been. What they miss out is that the vast majority of those who have already complied are the decent LLs who always tried to do the right thing about deposits anyway and the dodgier element will continue to get away with it because of poor legislative wording & judicial decisions that are IMO contrary to the spirit of the law.

Prancer

Loretta wrote: »

I don't know where yoy live, in Brighton there si a Housing Advice centre, staffed by law students or recently qualified law students, graduates, not sure and they know the law inside out and are really the experts. Is there somewhere like that where you live, if not Shelter. This law is badly done, and someone has to test it for the good of everyone so I am sure someone or one of these sort of organisations will finance it to get a definitive answer.

If the law says the Lanldord should place the deposit into a sheme and notify the tenant within 14 days, that is what they should do.

It is completely unacceptable for the landlord to try it on and when 'caught out' when the tenant finds out what their rights are, usually at the end of the tenancy or when there is a dispute, either through this wonderful site so full of information and support or from some other source the Landlord can just say 'Oh dear got caught' and rush to put this right and then get away with it is not right.

A Landlord who does this is not honest and you would have to wonder if they are doing anything else properly, ie. paying tax, doing the gas certificate ets.

The government have produces a very unclear bad law, someone has to test it and get a clear answer, I would think that your case is simple enough to appeal and clear this up once and for all.

I hate all this ducking and diving and trying to get away with things, if people did what they are supposed to do both sides would do well.

Thanks Loretta, we're "up north" but will try and find some support from Shelter etc as also advised in another post. Funny you should mention gas certificates, cos guess what, we didnt get one of them either until we made the court claim and British Gas were sent round to do one.

redcar_2

Prancer wrote: »

Thanks redcar. Deposit was placed with Deposit Protection Service.

TDS seem to refuse to adjudicate if deposit is protected past 14 days so therefore easy to argue that the deposit is not protected but I've no information on DPS. Will be interested to hear what their view is. Its not very clear from their website.

BTW could you give details of the other two cases you mention.

tbs624

Prancer wrote: »

...... Funny you should mention gas certificates, cos guess what, we didnt get one of them either until we made the court claim and British Gas were sent round to do one.

LLs have to be able to produce Gas Safety Certificates going back for the last 2 years' rentals at the property.....I'd be passing that bit onto the local Tenancy Relations Officer & Environmental Health Officer, plus the Health & Safety Exec who are responsible for enforcing gas safety regs....... (LLs who fail to comply with gas regs face a court appearance a fines of several K.)

Prancer

tbs624 wrote: »

Again, this is an eventuality that should have been foreseen by the drafters of this legislation and it's going to happen on a regular basis. An extension to that proviso about no S21 being servable whilst the deposit is unprotected could so easily have been extended as "no S21 can be served at all during any tenancy where you as LL don't get that deposit registered within 14days, full stop". I reckon that here would soon be a rush to comply then .

Incidentally the subject of retaliatory evictions is one that the CAB have been working on - tenants *must* highlight all these related issues to their MPs and the Housing Minister, otherwise all we will read in the press are the Govt or ARLA sponsored releases about how marvellous the response to the legislation has been. What they miss out is that the vast majority of those who have already complied are the decent LLs who always tried to do the right thing about deposits anyway and the dodgier element will continue to get away with it because of poor legislative wording & judicial decisions that are IMO contrary to the spirit of the law.

Thanks, think I'll contact CAB as well and will definitely go down the MP and Housing Minister route too. I think many of the posters on these forums could have come up with better wording for this legislation and definitely agree with you about the S21 penalty !

RecoveringAlcoholic

I would endorse the CAB route as they were one of the original campaigners.

http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/

Prancer

tbs624 wrote: »

LLs have to be able to produce Gas Safety Certificates going back for the last 2 years' rentals at the property.....I'd be passing that bit onto the local Tenancy Relations Officer & Environmental Health Officer, plus the Health & Safety Exec who are responsible for enforcing gas safety regs....... (LLs who fail to comply with gas regs face a court appearance a fines of several K.)

We don't have a TRO and EHO have not been much use at all, they just pointed out that we do have a gas cert now. We also had problems with the new electrical installation at the property done by the LL himself, which was declared illegal and unauthorised by Building Regulations Dept at the council, but they couldnt take action or enforcement cos they couldnt prove when it was done and they only have a six month window in which to act. EHO took it over but again have not been much use. We're still waiting for the LL to send round a competent Part P qualified electrician as advised by them.

IMO if you want to get any reaction from your local council then not closing your bin lid completely or putting a leaf or two in the black bin is more likely to do the trick !

We only have 5 weeks or so left here so we're losing the will to fight now, it's been a terrible tenancy for us and yet we know from experience that the vast majority of LLs are decent and honest, it's just the few bad ones that are very very bad and they seem to get away with it.

Prancer

redcar wrote: »

TDS seem to refuse to adjudicate if deposit is protected past 14 days so therefore easy to argue that the deposit is not protected but I've no information on DPS. Will be interested to hear what their view is. Its not very clear from their website.

BTW could you give details of the other two cases you mention.

Will ring them tomorrow and let you know.

The two judges who concluded that the sanctions of the Tenancy Deposit Scheme still apply despite retrospective compliance were District Judge Singleton, Claim No. 8GL00457 Stankova v Glassonbury on 10th March 2008 at Gloucester Crown & County Court and District Judge Allen, Claim No. 8BF00369 Butcher v Sharan Properties Limited, 18th April 2008 at Brentford County Court). The latter case was lost on a technicality about a deposit actually being "paid" on renewal of the tenancy but the judge did conclude that despite the fact that the LL had subsequently protected the deposit, it would still lead to judgement for return or securing of the deposit plus x 3 deposit.

Premier_2

Sounds like we have a professional complainer here! :cool:

You took a LL to court about a non-protected deposit even though it was protected when asked.

And you involved local authority about a CP12 not being issued by a certain date, even though you had a valid one at the time.

My advice, and I know many won't will agree with me here. Speak to your LL first if you have any issues - don't go and get everyone & their dog wound up against the LL. A quiet word will see most reasonable LLs acting quickly to correct any oversight. LLs are human like everyone else - and yes they like everyone else make the odd mistake now and again. But LLs, even the reasonable ones, are only reasonable when they are being treated reasonably by their tenants.

However, with your attitude, it's no wonder you're being evicted - and expect trouble finding a new place too as I doubt you'll be getting any reference off your current LL.