paypal disputes - unfair decision!!

tobysmummy_2

I don't post much on here but am coming to seek some advice on paypal disputes - my blood is boiling at the moment!

I sold something on ebay and after 2 weeks and many emails, finally got the buyer to pay - who then raised a dispute on paypal saying they did't recieve the item.

I responded, providing a certificate of posting to prove that the items were sent on the 18th June.

Today, paypal have emailed me saying they have decided in favour of the buyer and refunded his money!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Apparently, I can appeal this decision, but I'm wondering if anyone has had a similar experience, and what the outcome of the appeal was. I can only provide the information I originally gave in the dispute and can't add anything further as I've provided all relevant info/documents.

I hate to say this, but I think thebuyer is having a laugh - I actually believe they recieved the item, the fact that they were so reluctant to pay suggests that they never had any intention of paying for the goods anyway.

I just hate the way that there is no seller protection now - I have tons of stuff to get rid of yet am so reluctant to use ebay from now on.

Any advice....please???? Thanks

skylight

You wont win. Paypals rules are that they need proof of delivery (online too and only special delivery I believe, recorded is not enough - unless someone can correct me on that), that they can check. Proof of posting is not proof of delivery so therefore you can never win. Sorry.

imnotalwaysright

I had a ring that I sold last year worth £280. I sold it for £38 all in on Ebay. It'd never been worn so in perfect condition. I even upgraded my standard postage to special delivery as the buyer requested it. The very next day that buyer said the ring was clearly used, in poor condition & demanded at least a 50% refund. I asked her to send the ring back & I'd give a full refund.

She refused!!! Then immediately put in a dispute to paypal. I convinced her to send the ring back & when I got it back a couple of weeks later, it had been re-sized (badly) & it was covered in scratched as though it's been cleaned with a scourer. What was once a beautiful item of jewellery now looked like a bit of trash. I responded to paypal & said I would not be giving a refund & I would send the item back to the buyer. PayPal refunded her! I was so annoyed. I didn't relist the ring, I've still got it. PayPal tend to favour the buyer no matter what.

(they didn't refund her P&P though)

GregtheHammer

The problem with paypal is unless you have a tracking number which can prove delivery then they will always side with the buyer.

Does the buyers feedback suggest anything like this previously, you may be right they are trying it on. I have in the past when things I have sold things & they have gone missing I have said in the feedback "sorry item was lost"

I would not hold out much hope with an appeal, just going on previous posts I have read.

StaffsSW

I fell victim to that same scam a few years ago when i started on eBay - opened a non-payer dispute, they paid on the 7th day, I posted on the 8th day, and they started a Item Not Received that same evening.

Being a noob, I sent it 1st class, un-recorded, so did not stand a chance with Paypal.

Since then, every item that goes into dispute but is paid, is sent recorded at the very least, and on occasion special delivery - at my own cost. It is for my security rather than the buyers though.

tobysmummy_2

thanks for your replies, I've spoken to Royal Mail who have said I may be able to claim compensation through them, so have picked up a form but not sure if I'll get anything from it.

The buyer has left feedback on a few items (all totalling more than £50) saying they haven't been recieved, this has been since ebay have changed their feedback rules on buyers only being able to have positive feedback - I'm also really annoyed at the fact that I can't warn other sellers that this particular buyer lacks communication skills and the ability to pay as requested!

It's the first really bad experience I've had on ebay and I've been selling stuff on/off for the last 3 years so I guess I'm lucky in that respect - I'm finding more and more buyers are not paying etc though since the new feedback rules have come in, but at least with non-payment, I can relist the item and not be any worse off, I'm down a fair few quid here!

And I'm expecting my first negative feedback now, despite the fact that this has totally gone in their favour! Thank God it's friday!!!! mucho vino for me tonight......

alfiesmum

If it's any concellation (sp?) I think they can only open 3 disputes with paypal per year, so they won't be doing it too many more times.

grunnie

paypal only look at each case that the buyer opens They don't look at the fact the buyer may have done this 3 or 4 or more times before.I once sold some vouchers then posted them got told they didn't arrive so I sent off another set. When she said they hadn't arrived either Paypal gave her her money back in full even though I had her signature on the second batch as proof she had received them.Looking at her feedback I could see she had done that a few times before.When I phoned paypal to complain I just got told that was the easiest thing for them to do.

digerati

tobysmummy wrote: »

I sold something on ebay ... who then raised a dispute on paypal saying they didn't recieve the item... I responded, providing a certificate of posting to prove that the items were sent on the 18th June... Today, paypal have emailed me saying they have decided in favour of the buyer and refunded his money!!!

There is little you can do except
1) contact Royal Mail and have them confirm in writing that the item did arrive,
2) make a complaint at your local Police station against the buyer for committing a criminal offense under Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 namely Fraud by false representation since they have obtained your goods without payment,
3) armed with both these previous points - lodge a complaint with the Financial Ombudsman Service against PayPal.
In many cases, when presented with evidence that goes against their conduct, PayPal will attempt to settle up in full via an ex gratia payment.

tobysmummy wrote: »

The buyer has left feedback on a few items (all totalling more than £50) saying they haven't been recieved, this has been since ebay have changed their feedback rules on buyers only being able to have positive feedback - I'm also really annoyed at the fact that I can't warn other sellers that this particular buyer lacks communication skills and the ability to pay as requested!

Contact the other affected sellers and ask them to contact their local Police station and make a Fraud Act 2006: Section 2 complaint against the buyer. When the Police in the buyer's locale receive numerous complaints against them, they will take it more seriously than a single isolated complaint. Police know that multiple complaints over a short period are good indicators that a scammer is at work. Often (particularly with amateur scammers) all it takes is a call from the Police to the buyer, to suddenly have the items "found" or "turn up" out of the blue and repayment of the amount owed.

tobysmummy wrote: »

II just hate the way that there is no seller protection now - I have tons of stuff to get rid of yet am so reluctant to use ebay from now on.

Any advice....please???? Thanks

In future, add the following info to your eBay listings: For your protection all PayPal purchases will be sent Special Delivery, and charge all PayPal customers a sufficent fee to cover Special Delivery plus all the applicable PayPal fees. You should offer cheaper shipping options to customers that don't use PayPal, so only those that insist on PayPal are taxed appropriately. With non-PayPal customers a COP will suffice for Royal Mail compensation up to £34; above that amount use Special Delivery with appropriate coverage.

For further protection, particularly with higher value items, you can also invoke the well-known Frerk-Malte Clause which, incidentally is eBay permitted:

"PayPal payments must be confirmed with copies of the winning bidder's passport and copies of both the front & back of the winner's charge card to complete the sale. Please provide these documents as electronic scans immediately after the end of the auction. The item will only be shipped after you have provided these documents. These additional terms are important, as PayPal will only protect sellers from unjustified chargebacks in accordance with the above. You as a buyer remain fully protected through PayPal’s Buyer Protection Policy. So both sides are well protected."

Frerk-Malte Feller is the Managing Director of eBay Germany and was formerly General Manager of PayPal Deutschland, so he's well aware of all the pitfalls and problems associated with PayPal.

Marty_J

digerati wrote: »

charge all PayPal customers a sufficent fee to cover Special Delivery plus all the applicable PayPal fees.

For further protection, particularly with higher value items, you can also invoke the well-known Frerk-Malte Clause which, incidentally is eBay permitted:

I don't think you're allowed to charge extra for PayPal customers.

You're also not allowed to discourage buyers from using one payment method over another.

Premier_2

...Sellers who accept electronic money services as a means of payment for an item purchased on eBay may not impose a surcharge. Electronic money services include, but are not limited to, services such as PayPal, Nochex, FastPay or Moneybookers...

Postage and packing - Sellers may add a reasonable postage and packing fee to the final price of their item. A postage and packing fee can cover the seller's reasonable costs for mailing, packaging and handling the item. Postage and packing fees cannot be listed as a percentage of the final sale price...

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/listing-surcharges.html

...Sellers who state in their listing that they accept certain payment methods must not selectively offer those payment methods to buyers or discourage buyers from using those payment methods.
This means that sellers must always accept payment from buyers through the payment methods they have selected in their Payment Details section of their listing, including PayPal, and must not act in any way to discourage buyers from paying by these methods...

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/accepted-payments-policy.html

So you can add whatever terms you want in your listing, but if you don't comply with ebay rules, expect a non-perfoming seller claim against you to be upheld.