My experiences as a PhD student

bigdavieh

becky170 wrote: »

Well I think that depends on what subject you do your PhD in. If you are doing a non-lab based PhD or a lab based computer/genetics etc it is possbile to do a 9 til 5, but when you are doing cell based research where you need to do time courses and week long experiments then 9-5 monday-friday isn't really realistic. I only know one person who finished in her three years and she defintely worked weekend and long evenings. But if you're just (or did) doing a 5 day week 9-5 then that's great, everyone's PhD is different and every university/department expects different things of their students In my department most people are at the end of their fourth year before they finish and most work weekends, but I wouldn't say none of us are cut out for doing a PhD, it's just what is expected in our department.

Thanks for all the words of support, I really do appreciate it. I hope your Viva goes well NicolaJH, and celyn90 I hope your last 12 weeks are productive

I'm still not convinced. Whilst my 9-5 example might not be a day-in, day-out, working method I certainly think, from what people I know doing lab-based research have told me, that if you are applied and use your time effectively you can certainly average it out as that over the whole timespan. That is also taking account of it being a University that has high standards and won't accept any old rubbish as long as you keep paying the fees.

As for a previous poster who claimed

i was in at 7.30 am yesterday and by 4.30 needed to go home and have a sleep to feel human again.

So, what you are saying is you did a nine hour working day, which I'm sure is the norm for plenty of people, but you were so traumatised you no longer felt human? I think you need to stop moaning and realise how lucky you are to be doing something which gives you the flexibility to leave at 4.30 to be honest.

becky170

Well bigdavieh you are entitled to your opinion that I (and everyone I know doing a PhD) are not cut out to do a PhD if we can't loosely fit our work into a 9-5 day. The thing that drives me to work more hours than that is because I want a PhD I can be proud of, one where I can look back and think yes I really achieved something. I could work less and still get a PhD but I don't think that would be enough for me.

Anyway good luck with your PhD bigdavieh, it sounds like you are having a positive experience!

melancholly

bigdavieh wrote: »

I'm still not convinced. Whilst my 9-5 example might not be a day-in, day-out, working method I certainly think, from what people I know doing lab-based research have told me, that if you are applied and use your time effectively you can certainly average it out as that over the whole timespan. That is also taking account of it being a University that has high standards and won't accept any old rubbish as long as you keep paying the fees.

So, what you are saying is you did a nine hour working day, which I'm sure is the norm for plenty of people, but you were so traumatised you no longer felt human? I think you need to stop moaning and realise how lucky you are to be doing something which gives you the flexibility to leave at 4.30 to be honest.

that's quite harsh..... and i also think very unfair. if you do all your phd practical work and also write papers/posters, go to conferences, do some teaching, do some marking etc etc, it's hard to fit all that in to a 9-5 day. sometimes getting access to equipment means that full days at the weekend are just necessary.

yes it's flexible and yes that's great, but it's also highly pressurised and certainly where i am, i am judged by my output and not by the hours that i sit at my desk.... this is great if everything goes smoothly, but also means being up til 2am getting something done to a deadline if you need to (and more often than not, it doesn't go smoothly!).

having been through a phd and knowing how stressful it is, i think your dismissive attitude and lack of sympathy is a real shame, and i can't think of anyone i know who has said that it was 'easy'.

melancholly

bigdavieh wrote: »

So, what you are saying is you did a nine hour working day, which I'm sure is the norm for plenty of people, but you were so traumatised you no longer felt human? I think you need to stop moaning and realise how lucky you are to be doing something which gives you the flexibility to leave at 4.30 to be honest.

just to clarify, i did a 9 hour day with no break, no lunch, solid work with visiting patients and then all associated admin. yes i was tired from it and yes i needed to go home.

my point (which you conveniently missed) was that i did a full working day (not much more or less than normal as it happens) - but my supervisors didn't turn up until 11am and therefore thought i was slacking off after only being in for 5 and half hours. the issue was them assuming i hadn't been working, not the work itself....

if you are such a genius phd student, perhaps you could try reading other posts properly to see what they actually say - i find that works better when reading papers too!

Voyager2002

bigdavieh wrote: »

If any of you really need to work as hard as you say then I don't think you were cut out for a Ph.D in the first place. 9-5, Monday to Friday, and you can be finished in three years no problem.

I speak as someone who gained a PhD ten years ago, and who has spent most of the last decade working as a post-doc with quite a lot of contact with PhD students in various disciplines, and in several universities:

I think you are a troll, and have no conception of what is expected of PhD students, and of the effort needed to meet those standards. The only way that a doctoral student could make satisfactory progress with the relaxed working schedule that you claim would be if s/he were undertaking experimental research in an extremely well-organised laboratory, and was probably doing experiments jointly with more experienced researchers. Such a person is likely to be a research assistant registered for a PhD rather than a more typical PhD student.

celyn90

bigdavieh wrote: »

If any of you really need to work as hard as you say then I don't think you were cut out for a Ph.D in the first place. 9-5, Monday to Friday, and you can be finished in three years no problem.

I have completed over 1500 experiments so far. I have 26 lab books completed, as well as additional ones for my biological work. My boss insists (i.e "you will") you stay four years minimally. You do not get a reference otherwise and because of his reputation, what he says goes. We are expected to do a set amount of lab work a day, six days a week min - that is lab work, not data processing, data aquistion or reading, which is more work than the the experiments to be honest. My spectroscopy data alone takes hours to analyse - and every single proton has to be accounted for in mixtures of huge (and in my case fluorinated) systems. We are not given time off to write up either - you do it in the lab, you are still part of the group and you are not allowed to work at home. In the past I have been give four-day deadlines to complete syntheses for collaborators - which have involved working 48hrs straight - 25 steps in four days. Then the hallucinations come - honestly they do

Even if you are good, you still do the time because you can be better. I want a thesis I can be proud of, one where I can say I gave absolutely everything. Everybody in my lab is still here at 8pm at night at least - noone slacks off. We don't get the breaks like you are legally entitled to in a proper place of work, lunch is a desk picnic if you are lucky to have the time to do so. Nobody here started without 1st, and many of us have done a few years in industry on top of that, so we can't be that bad. :A

Some of my friends with different projects in different fields did do 9-5 three years and got PhDs. I don't doubt it is possible, but you have to understand in some groups and some fields, that isn't the way it is done. Whether that is right or not is a different matter. It certainly isn't possible here. My group happens to be one of those where whatever you do - more could be done - and is expected to be done. I could have done that and I would still have had more than enough to write -up - but that isn't the way the group works. I am incrediably organised, you have to be handling that much data, that much work and dealing with in my case, eleven different collaborators in seven different instiutions - I've even visted a few of them as there is always something they can teach me. I also teach, do public awareness of science work and schools liasion and a few other bits and pieces.

I have had many proper jobs in many different sectors before returning to research and they were all a walk in the park compared to this, so I do feel qualified to comment as I have had a life outside the academic appointments. I don't know what I'll do next, really I don't but I've had the ups and downs of working in a fantastic institution with fantastic collegues on cutting edge science. Wouldn't change it for the world, even if I gripe every now and again that my boss is scarily driven, has odd moods and doesn't sleep. :A

Most PhD students I know work hard. Really really hard. And they do it because they want to, because science excites them, not because they aren't capable or are playing catch-up.

bigdavieh

melancholly wrote: »

my point (which you conveniently missed) was that i did a full working day (not much more or less than normal as it happens) - but my supervisors didn't turn up until 11am and therefore thought i was slacking off after only being in for 5 and half hours. the issue was them assuming i hadn't been working, not the work itself....

if you are such a genius phd student, perhaps you could try reading other posts properly to see what they actually say - i find that works better when reading papers too!

I did not "conveniently miss" your point in the slightest. The fact of the matter is, regardless of the context, you said you were in for nine hours (without any mention of lack of breaks) and you no longer felt human. The opinions of your supervisors do not change that basic admission in the slightest. Indeed, they only seem to be relevant to the fact that you then felt guilty about going home at 4.30 (which, by the way, I think you should).

I am in no way a "genius phd student" but, from what you have wrote above, I am certainly a lot closer to that standard than you will ever be.

Oh, and to everyone else contributing to this thread about what a hard life Ph.D students have, may I suggest if you spent less time on here trying to convince everyone of how hard you worked then you might not have to work 12 hour days/at weekends/till 2am/48 hours straight etc etc etc

Cardelia

Voyager2002 wrote: »

I speak as someone who gained a PhD ten years ago, and who has spent most of the last decade working as a post-doc with quite a lot of contact with PhD students in various disciplines, and in several universities:

I think you are a troll, and have no conception of what is expected of PhD students, and of the effort needed to meet those standards. The only way that a doctoral student could make satisfactory progress with the relaxed working schedule that you claim would be if s/he were undertaking experimental research in an extremely well-organised laboratory, and was probably doing experiments jointly with more experienced researchers. Such a person is likely to be a research assistant registered for a PhD rather than a more typical PhD student.

Hmm, if you really have the experience you claim, you'd know that every institution (indeed, every supervisor) is different in terms of the expectations of their students. You'd also know that some supervisors require long hours but most do not require their students to stay in the department until gone 8pm every night. I've known people do a 10-4 weekday, including an hour's lunch and 4 15-minute tea breaks, to get good PhDs and plenty of publications from their project.

In my experience (three universities, four different research labs, three degrees and a postdoc) it is the students who work the longest hours who make the least efficient use of their time. Is this true of everybody? No, of course not. But it has been my experience that those students who faff, gossip, surf the internet and generally waste time are those who end up spending long hours in the lab. They're also the people who moan the most about others leaving "early" when in reality it's their own poor time-management which has led to their spending weekends catching up on work which wasn't completed during the week.

ETA: celyn90 - if you don't mind me asking, who do you work for?

BubbleFrogette

bigdavieh wrote: »

I am in no way a "genius phd student" quote]

That's true enough - from the stuff you come out with you're closer to being a proper muppett.

The truth is that most PhD students work pretty hard (longer than 9 till 5 over the whole 3 years) and just because you don't, doesn't make you superior or more 'fit for the role' as you seem to suggest.

I've known people like you when I was doing my PhD and I can tell you something - I bet everyone thinks you are a complete tw*t and they'll all be waiting for you to fall flat on your face. And with your kind of attitude, that will probably happen soon enough. :rotfl:

melancholly

bigdavieh wrote: »

I am in no way a "genius phd student" but, from what you have wrote above, I am certainly a lot closer to that standard than you will ever be.

from 'what i have wrote' :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
with my multiple publications in journals and at conferences, i'm more than happy with my abilities. at least i don't insult someone else with grammar like that! i know that that particular day for me was exhausting - i don't know how you can justify extrapolating that out to the rest of my working life! i maintain that your ability to establish facts rather than inferences is too poor for you to be genuine

if you were actually doing a phd, you would realise that the time spent on your project isn't the issue. it's the fact that it consumes your entire life so that you go to sleep thinking about what type of analysis to do and wake up thinking about how to deal with a new reference that has contradictory results to your work. that is what is most stressful for me