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  • FIRST POST
    • Zita_Z
    • By Zita_Z 24th May 17, 12:10 AM
    • 11Posts
    • 8Thanks
    Zita_Z
    Residential parking in allocated bay - Court Claim received
    • #1
    • 24th May 17, 12:10 AM
    Residential parking in allocated bay - Court Claim received 24th May 17 at 12:10 AM
    Hi All,

    I have spent hours reading up on the topic as I have just been served by Parking & Property Management. Please can someone help me figure out if I have a case?

    I live in an apartment complex with a multi-storey carpark. Residents are allocated parking spaces and given a sticker (with a disproportionately small sticky surface) that they need to display at all times. My parking space is on the 7th floor of the complex, which means there are a lot of centrifugal and centripetal forces at play when I am driving up/down.

    On the day of the incident, I was in a rush to get to a doctor’s appointment (I had a very bad cold with a fever, I don’t know if this could help), and after I parked my car (my surgery is within walking distance), I forgot to check if my sticker was still in place. The next morning I found the PCN on my dashboard for not displaying the ticket properly. It had fallen to the floor of the passenger side, but it was still visible if someone looked in through the window (can provide photos timestamped from the same morning).

    So between 6 PM the night before and 8 AM next morning they managed to spot my missing sticker. The original fine would have been 60 pounds (100 if paid later than 28 days), now it is 237 pounds.

    I am wondering if you can help determine whether I have a chance to dispute this ticket. I think I have a few arguments that could help:
    - Primacy of contract: my lease states that I have an allocated parking spot for one car (so Jopson ruling may apply). The fact that they have a permit scheme is secondary.
    - Legality of contract: as this is a private apartment complex, they have a monopoly over parking spaces. I do not have the choice of not parking there as that is my only option (as opposed to a shop’s car park). The property management company may have signed a contract with these people, but I did not. They have signs displayed in the car park, but I have no say in what is in the terms as they were drafted in advance. These are unfair terms.
    - Circumstances: the fact that I was physically unwell at the time (can provide doctor’s appointment proof), and that the permit simply fell off my dashboard due to circling around up to floor 7.
    - There was no loss of income. I had the right to park my car in that spot, it was allocated to me, and it could not have been rented to anyone in that timeframe. I do pay for this spot through the rent I pay to my landlord, it is MY spot (they don’t own the car park, only operate it). Also, as this is a residential car park, a note to say ’please provide proof of permit’ would have been a much reasonable 1st step, rather than straight up issuing a 60 pound fine.
    - Disproportionately high sum. I refuse to pay 237 pounds in a situation where I had the right to park in my spot and I have/had proof at the time of the fine.

    Side note: my boyfriend has received a very similar charge from them. In his case, the sticker fell off the windshield, into the small crack between the glass and the dashboard, which resulted in only the top half of the ticket being visible. At the time I tried to reason with PPM, I called them and went through their internal appeals process (they rejected, no surprise there...). Now I’m just very angry and want justice.

    I would really appreciate any advice. Also, if anyone can help with defence letter writing, that would be amazing (I saw that a few people had help from experienced members).

    Thank you!
Page 2
    • Zita_Z
    • By Zita_Z 15th Jun 17, 10:54 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Zita_Z
    Thank you Guys Dad, I made a few corrections. I changed lease to tenancy agreement. I also added another paragraph from a defence found here about ParkingEye v Beavis. I think this applies to my case (residential, own dedicated bay):

    This case can be easily distinguished from ParkingEye v Beavis, which the Judges held was 'entirely different' from most ordinary economic contract disputes. Charges cannot exist merely to punish drivers. This claimant has failed to show any comparable 'legitimate interest' to save their charge from Lord Dunedin's four tests for a penalty, which the Supreme Court Judges found was still adequate in less complex cases, such as this allegation.
    • Zita_Z
    • By Zita_Z 11th Jul 17, 9:53 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Zita_Z
    Hi,

    I have sent my defence to the court almost a month ago and haven't received the Directions Questionnaire yet, is this normal?
    Also, Gladstones have sent me an email with a copy of their DQ (trying to steer me towards paper-based hearing...). I'm not sure if it's them being proactive or they have already received theirs.
    I check my mailbox vigilantly every day and nothing yet, so I'm just a little worried I'm going to miss some deadline.

    Thanks for any advice on this.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Jul 17, 10:11 AM
    • 14,933 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    You do not want this to be determined 'on the papers'. This is a standard Gladstones ploy. You object to it to the court as the case is far from 'straightforward' (as G's insinuate) and you wish to question the company's witness in person (not that one will turn up - just their gun-for-hire solicitor).

    I'm not the court expert here, but I understand that you can download the DQ from MCOL.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Jul 17, 5:56 PM
    • 50,667 Posts
    • 64,069 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I would phone the court at CCBC and ask if they have forgotten to send you a DQ. Be ready for them to be very busy, read this, they are fed up with these scam parking cases:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5677956

    HTH
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Zita_Z
    • By Zita_Z 16th Oct 17, 8:46 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Zita_Z
    Court appointment on Wednesday
    Hi everyone,

    Thanks so much for all your help so far. I have my court appointment scheduled for this Wednesday and I have a few questions/need reassurance I can win this thing.

    1. I missed the witness statement submission deadline by a few days. I was supposed to send it 2 weeks before the appt. but completely blanked and submitted it a few days later. Do I still have a chance of the judge accepting it? What happens in this case? Can they simply rule in the claimant's favour by default? I'm hoping they have some compassion for someone with a full-time job without legal representation.

    2. Let's assume they'll still hear me out - any general tips on what to focus on and how to conduct myself? Do I need to pretend I'm an actual lawyer and recite case law etc. by heart? Tried to look but couldn't find a lot of threads discussing the actual court hearings.

    3. Any areas I should focus on? Just to recap:
    I parked in my own bay at a residental car park. I have not directly signed a contract with the parking company. The estate rules of the complex are vague and don't mention them by name either. My sticky permit fell off onto the floor (act of God). Their signs say they don't accept retrospective evidence - I think that is an unfair term. This is a gated PIN-protected car park for residents so permits seem excessive anyway. They could use a more modern vehicle reg number directory - they are putting us at a disadvantage with this outdated system.

    Many thanks in advance!
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 17th Oct 17, 6:56 AM
    • 1,553 Posts
    • 2,864 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    What does their contract / letter of authority say?

    This is a simple battle of forms now. The judge will want to compare both your lease / tenancy with their letter of authority (or should do)

    Loc also suggests

    send them that costs schedule though, 24 hours before the hearing, and file it with the court. Take with you evidence that you have sent the costs schedule to them and when.
    There is a template from LoC you can use too.
    Life's for living, get on with it rather than worrying about these. If they hassle, counter claim.

    Send them that costs schedule though, 24 hours before the hearing, and file it with the court. Take with you evidence that you have sent the costs schedule to them and when.
    LoC
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 17th Oct 17, 8:36 AM
    • 222 Posts
    • 203 Thanks
    claxtome
    Let's assume they'll still hear me out - any general tips on what to focus on and how to conduct myself? Do I need to pretend I'm an actual lawyer and recite case law etc. by heart? Tried to look but couldn't find a lot of threads discussing the actual court hearings.
    The Judge understands that the defendant, you, is not familiar with court and court procedure. They will probably tell you that small claims procedures aren't very formal. In my case I didn't have to say a lot but it always best to be prepared.

    The following is just a suggestion and hopefully will ensure you have it clear in your head your case and defence (I always prefer things written down; hence why I did it):

    If it was me I would be tempted to put together a basic Skeleton Argument (not a formal one like I did - too late in your case I am afraid) but just a crib sheet of what you want to say. A 'formal' skeleton argument is a document you send to the judge and Claimant. It contains what you would say when you appear in court to present your case.

    In your crib sheet I would just have 2 headings in the document 'Defendant Arguments' and 'Rebutting Claimant Evidence and Arguments'. (or something similar).

    Under the first heading I would start with your 'main' defence and work down your other defence arguments. I would put in there references to the appropriate page in your 'defence statement' / 'Witness statement' /evidence or other document.

    Under the second heading I would want to put under there all the parts that refute/disagree with what they have sent you as evidence or WS. If they have quoted cases like say Beavis v Parking Eye I would put my arguments against those cases - if you have any.

    My skeleton argument is in post 165 of my 'Big Car park' thread->
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5640401&page=9#165

    Bear in mind I spent about a week preparing that - yours doesn't need to be that formal.

    I hope that helps.

    In case you are interested if you read on from post #165 of my thread you will get an idea of my successful experience at court.
    Last edited by claxtome; 18-10-2017 at 1:47 PM. Reason: formatting
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 17th Oct 17, 8:52 AM
    • 222 Posts
    • 203 Thanks
    claxtome
    Unless trying to prove 'unreasonable behaviour' of Claimant the costs you can claim are:
    1) Loss of earnings @£XX per hour for YY hours
    max £95

    2) Mileage driven to attend court, including return, at 45p per mile

    3) Car parking on day of hearing (approx. unless you know)
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 17th Oct 17, 12:36 PM
    • 1,262 Posts
    • 2,145 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    You could still do a Skeleton, although the other side may fuss and say it's a late document, but you will say it is simply a helpful summary of everything they already have, with helpful page references. But equally, you could do your own informal crib sheet. The importance of page references is that when you say to the judge eg. that their signage was inadequate, you can then refer him/her to the picture(s) of the signage by reference to the page/tab number in the bundle.


    Your statement: if anyone says anything about late service (which they may not) you will say that it was still served in good time for the hearing and doesn't disadvantage the C at all - it is unlikely that it will be disallowed (if you tried to serve it tomorrow it might be different). I take it the other side have not complained about its late service?


    In court: relax, you are a Litigant in Person and are not expected to perform like Perry Mason or know things off by heart (lawyers refer to notes, they never reel things off by heart anyway - one of the skills of the lawyer is making good notes that are easy to refer to!). That is again why you should have a crib sheet - cross refer it to the legal authorities you are relying on. Take a separate bundle of those to court with you, with a spare copy to hand up to the judge and for the Claimant.


    Focus: have you proved firstly that your landlord had the right to park (granted in his lease) and secondly that (s)he granted you this right (granted in your tenancy or in a contract collateral to your tenancy if the tenancy is silent)? You say you have the right but you must demonstrate it.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 18th Oct 17, 1:29 PM
    • 1,262 Posts
    • 2,145 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Best of luck today
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 18th Oct 17, 1:46 PM
    • 222 Posts
    • 203 Thanks
    claxtome
    Good luck too...
    If applying for costs don't forgot to take some proof of your salary. (like a payslip)
    • Zita_Z
    • By Zita_Z 18th Oct 17, 6:12 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Zita_Z
    Hi,
    Thank you to all of you for the great tips and all the help you've provided, it is really appreciated.

    In summary, we have lost one case and won one. If you remember from the beginning of my story, I actually had two PCNs to defend. Myself and my partner both got dragged to court, the circumstances were almost the same. Despite of all the preparation and research we've done, the judge dismissed pretty much of all my primary defences (primacy of contract, chain of authority, unilateral terms that cannot be complied with - displaying the sticky permit "at all times", uncontrollable events like the sticker falling onto the floor or peeling away from glass due to weather conditions, even the argument that the stickers are not fit for the purpose dueto poor quality). So in the end it came down to a technicality: in my case the sticker fell onto the floor, and in my partner's case it slipped into the crack with the bottom half covered by the window tint.

    Luckily, we were able to apply for costs in my partner's case, but I will have to pay 200 pounds...

    I have very mixed feelings, I may write a more detailed court report later on if there is interest. I don't feel like justice has been served. And my taxes pay for these courtrooms and judges so that's even more frustrating. My friends and family are saying I should be glad it's over and forget it, but after spending so much time and effort fighting for what I believed would be a just outcome, I just feel miserable.
    • bdark2755
    • By bdark2755 18th Oct 17, 7:03 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    bdark2755
    Oh no this is very distressing to read, I’m so sorry that you lost one. I’ve been following this thread with interest as I’m in the same predicament. Live in a gated complex and my permit fell off the dash onto the seat even though it was face up and clearly visible I didn’t get anywhere with my online appeal with the parking operator. 3 tickets on the car by the time of my next need to use it as I commute by bus.
    The chasing letters have started and at the moment I’m in ignore mode.
    The only difference in my case is I own the space, but am now fearing the worst.
    I would much appreciate a more detailed update when you feel up to it, but can fully understand how you must be feeling at the moment.
    What were the reasons for winning one and losing one? That seems very unfair to me.
    • kaych
    • By kaych 18th Oct 17, 7:21 PM
    • 315 Posts
    • 174 Thanks
    kaych
    I am sorry to hear that you have lost your case. It must be so frustrating considering that you have every right to park in your own allocated space. I am so angry with PPS and wished there were more I could do to destroy them.

    I am fighting a similar case myself (residential car park with allocated car parking space - but my case was they issued a new permit and I did not display the new one on time) against the PPS but at the POPLA appeal stage at the moment. It would be most helpful if you could share the reasons the judge dismissed your arguments, as I am using similar arguments as yours for my appeal.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Oct 17, 12:28 AM
    • 50,667 Posts
    • 64,069 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Oh no this is very distressing to read, I’m so sorry that you lost one. I’ve been following this thread with interest as I’m in the same predicament. Live in a gated complex and my permit fell off the dash onto the seat even though it was face up and clearly visible I didn’t get anywhere with my online appeal with the parking operator. 3 tickets on the car by the time of my next need to use it as I commute by bus.
    The chasing letters have started and at the moment I’m in ignore mode.
    The only difference in my case is I own the space, but am now fearing the worst.
    I would much appreciate a more detailed update when you feel up to it, but can fully understand how you must be feeling at the moment.
    What were the reasons for winning one and losing one? That seems very unfair to me.
    Originally posted by bdark2755
    If you OWN the space why the heck are you scared and agreeing to display a permit at all?

    http://www.parking-prankster.com/more-case-law.html

    Click on and read Link v Parkinson.

    Start your own thread about how you should be fighting back, not fearing the worst.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Oct 17, 12:29 AM
    • 50,667 Posts
    • 64,069 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Hi,
    Thank you to all of you for the great tips and all the help you've provided, it is really appreciated.

    In summary, we have lost one case and won one. If you remember from the beginning of my story, I actually had two PCNs to defend. Myself and my partner both got dragged to court, the circumstances were almost the same. Despite of all the preparation and research we've done, the judge dismissed pretty much of all my primary defences (primacy of contract, chain of authority, unilateral terms that cannot be complied with - displaying the sticky permit "at all times", uncontrollable events like the sticker falling onto the floor or peeling away from glass due to weather conditions, even the argument that the stickers are not fit for the purpose dueto poor quality). So in the end it came down to a technicality: in my case the sticker fell onto the floor, and in my partner's case it slipped into the crack with the bottom half covered by the window tint.

    Luckily, we were able to apply for costs in my partner's case, but I will have to pay 200 pounds...

    I have very mixed feelings, I may write a more detailed court report later on if there is interest. I don't feel like justice has been served. And my taxes pay for these courtrooms and judges so that's even more frustrating. My friends and family are saying I should be glad it's over and forget it, but after spending so much time and effort fighting for what I believed would be a just outcome, I just feel miserable.
    Originally posted by Zita_Z
    So sorry to hear you lost one - which court?

    We would like to read a more detailed court report when you are calmer.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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