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  • FIRST POST
    • whaqqer
    • By whaqqer 13th Mar 17, 12:02 PM
    • 14Posts
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    whaqqer
    PCM invoice at High Point Village
    • #1
    • 13th Mar 17, 12:02 PM
    PCM invoice at High Point Village 13th Mar 17 at 12:02 PM
    I was issued a PCN at High Point Village in Hayes. I know there are a number of threads on this forum relating to this 'drop off' area and have read through them all.

    So I received the initial PCN to which I appealed as based on the letter from here not disclosing who was driving my car that day, etc. I received a response from PCM advising me that they had considered it but the charge still stood as the signage is clear and informed the driver of the contractual obligations they agreed to by parking (they also offer a definition of parking which I've already had answered elsewhere on here) in this area. The car only stopped for a few moments whilst dropping a passenger. They then continue that there were several parking bays available and the driver should have used one of those.

    I have also written to the CEO of Ballymore Homes who are the freeholder of the land but have had no response from them.

    My argument was going to be that the contract between PCM and Ballymore stated that there was a 20 minute grace period to which PCM had not adhered but it appears from another thread that they have now closed off this loophole with a new contract.

    My question is, yes there is one after all this, is this a case that I could now win as the loophole is closed and I'm not sure what arguments I could put forward.

    Thanks in advance for anyone that offers any advice.
Page 1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 13th Mar 17, 12:38 PM
    • 40,416 Posts
    • 80,738 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #2
    • 13th Mar 17, 12:38 PM
    • #2
    • 13th Mar 17, 12:38 PM
    Please tell us the name of the parking company, not just the initials.

    This will tell us which ATA the scammers belong to and the ATA's CoP will say what the grace periods are that they should adhere to.

    It will also tell us if it is worth a second stage appeal, although that information is already given in the NEWBIES thread.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • whaqqer
    • By whaqqer 13th Mar 17, 12:43 PM
    • 14 Posts
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    whaqqer
    • #3
    • 13th Mar 17, 12:43 PM
    • #3
    • 13th Mar 17, 12:43 PM
    Hi Fruitcake,

    The company is PCM or Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd.

    They have offered me the IAS but from what I've read about them, there is no point as the outcome is almost guaranteed to be against the owner of the car.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 13th Mar 17, 1:03 PM
    • 40,416 Posts
    • 80,738 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #4
    • 13th Mar 17, 1:03 PM
    • #4
    • 13th Mar 17, 1:03 PM
    Hi Fruitcake,

    The company is PCM or Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd.

    They have offered me the IAS but from what I've read about them, there is no point as the outcome is almost guaranteed to be against the owner of the car.
    Originally posted by whaqqer
    OK, so no point in doing anything after the initial appeal unless you get real court papers.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Timothea
    • By Timothea 13th Mar 17, 1:08 PM
    • 146 Posts
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    Timothea
    • #5
    • 13th Mar 17, 1:08 PM
    • #5
    • 13th Mar 17, 1:08 PM
    As you have been following other threads about this, you should already know the answer to your question. There are many grounds you can still use to defend this, depending on your circumstances. These include:
    • inadequate signage
    • entrapment
    • no parking event
    • no grace period
    • driver not identified
    • POFA non-compliance
    • CCR non-compliance
    • DPA non-compliance

    However, you are going to get nowhere with appeals to PCM, IAS or Ballymore; they don't care. Your only realistic opportunity to beat this is when it goes to court, which could be at any time in the next six years. You therefore need to prepare for that eventuality now, while your memory is fresh and to gather evidence.

    If you don't want this to drag on then you could take the bull by the horns and threaten to sue PCM for DPA breaches. This is only likely to work if you can present a strong claim and you are prepared to follow through with your threat. However, this is not for the faint-hearted and would require quite a lot of your time.
    • whaqqer
    • By whaqqer 13th Mar 17, 2:01 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    whaqqer
    • #6
    • 13th Mar 17, 2:01 PM
    • #6
    • 13th Mar 17, 2:01 PM
    Thanks Timothea,

    Your response was exactly what I was hoping for. Most other cases at this site seemed to have been won based on the previous grace period granted by the contract with the landowner but now that the contract has been amended to exclude that then I wondered what other grounds I could use. I will start researching each of the points you made.

    Should I reply to PCM refusing the IAS or just leave it now until the court papers arrive? Also, would it help my case at court if I make an application to the DVLA as others have posted requesting who and when the keeper information was requested?
    • Timothea
    • By Timothea 13th Mar 17, 2:23 PM
    • 146 Posts
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    Timothea
    • #7
    • 13th Mar 17, 2:23 PM
    • #7
    • 13th Mar 17, 2:23 PM
    Should I reply to PCM refusing the IAS or just leave it now until the court papers arrive? Also, would it help my case at court if I make an application to the DVLA as others have posted requesting who and when the keeper information was requested?
    Originally posted by whaqqer
    There's not much point in giving PCM any more information. Certainly contact DVLA to make a subject access request. Once you have those details, you could send PCM a section 10 data subject notice, which is described in post #1 here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5585388

    You should also collect other evidence (e.g. photos of the signage and the road layout) and write down an account of exactly what happened (for your benefit) before you forget any details. Keep all paperwork and correspondence.

    Once you have researched why the charge is invalid, you should complain to DVLA about PCM obtaining your personal information without reasonable cause.
    Last edited by Timothea; 13-03-2017 at 2:26 PM.
    • whaqqer
    • By whaqqer 18th Apr 17, 10:18 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    whaqqer
    • #8
    • 18th Apr 17, 10:18 AM
    • #8
    • 18th Apr 17, 10:18 AM
    Thanks for all the advice received so far.

    On Thursday I received a letter from Trace Debt Collectors demanding I now pay an updated fee of £160 for the parking invoice.

    Should I acknowledge receipt of this letter to them, or just file it away and await the solicitors letter?

    Thanks
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 18th Apr 17, 10:25 AM
    • 15,011 Posts
    • 23,583 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #9
    • 18th Apr 17, 10:25 AM
    • #9
    • 18th Apr 17, 10:25 AM
    Thanks for all the advice received so far.

    On Thursday I received a letter from Trace Debt Collectors demanding I now pay an updated fee of £160 for the parking invoice.

    Should I acknowledge receipt of this letter to them, or just file it away and await the solicitors letter?

    Thanks
    Originally posted by whaqqer
    Section 4 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky tells you how to deal with debt collectors. In short 'ignore'.

    Come back if you get a Letter Before Claim or real court papers.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • whaqqer
    • By whaqqer 18th Apr 17, 10:42 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    whaqqer
    Thanks Umkomaas for the quick reply,

    That's what I was planning to do but just wanted to confirm my understanding was correct from someone with experience from this board first.

    Letter filed away!
    • whaqqer
    • By whaqqer 30th Jun 17, 9:46 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    whaqqer
    So an update on my situation, I received a letter from Gladstones last Saturday morning, 24th June (although they have stated 16th June on the letter!) so their option to pay within 7 days of the letter was impossible anyway (not that I have any intention to pay!!)

    I have drafted a response to their LBC and would be grateful for the boards opinions.

    Thanks

    Your Reference: xxxxxxxxxxx

    Dear Sirs
    Re: PCN xxxxxxxxxxx – Letter Before County Court Claim

    I am writing to acknowledge receipt of your Letter Before Claim dated 16th June 2017.
    First, I deny any debt to Parking Control Management (UK) Limited and any court proceedings will be vigorously defended.
    Secondly, in reading your letter I do not believe (in reading through the Practice Direction for Pre-Action Conduct) that it is fully compliant with the Practice Direction: it is in fact woefully defective and possibly a deliberate attempt to mislead the recipient.
    Please therefore provide a Letter Before Claim which complies with the requirements of the Practice Direction: areas which you are not compliant are listed below:
    2.1 The claimant’s letter should give concise details about the matter, allowing the defendant to understand and investigate the issues without needing to request further information. The letter should include
    (1) the claimant’s full name and address;
    (2) the basis on which the claim is made (i.e. why the claimant says the defendant is liable): Contract Claim, Trespass Claim or other;
    (3) a clear summary of the facts on which the claim is based: why exactly has the defendant been charged;
    (4) what the claimant wants from the defendant;
    (5) if financial loss is claimed, an explanation of how the amount has been calculated (including any increases from the original amount claimed)

    2.2 The letter should also
    (1) list fully the essential documents on which the claimant intends to rely. You cannot presume that all the documents you will rely on are in my possession. I do acknowledge that once I have submitted my defence then further documents in rebuttal maybe submitted by the claimant;
    (2) set out the form of any further ADR (if any) that the claimant considers the most suitable and invite the defendant to agree to this;

    In addition to the above I would like to see every photo taken and all the evidence provided to make this claim against me.
    Please confirm that your client's contract with the land-holder includes specific authority to take legal action and that this will be produced for the court. I also require an explanation/justification for any additional charges added to the original including confirmation that these have already been invoiced and paid to any third parties involved.
    When I receive the documents and your explanations, I will be in a better position to make a more detailed response. It would be unreasonable to proceed with litigation before you have clarified your client's cause of action.
    I look forward to your response.
    Yours faithfully
    Last edited by whaqqer; 30-06-2017 at 9:56 AM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Jul 17, 12:20 AM
    • 50,789 Posts
    • 64,201 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Looks good, as long as that numbering is based on the current PD.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • whaqqer
    • By whaqqer 3rd Jul 17, 12:55 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    whaqqer
    Thanks Coupon,

    I used someone elses response letter and amended it for my own needs but I cannot find anything similar on justice.gov.uk with regards to the numbering.

    I cannot even find a Practice direction that states that they must do any of the 5 points that I listed for 2.1. Could it be that I have copied a very old template, and if so could someone point me in the right direction of where to find the current practice direction?

    Thanks
    • whaqqer
    • By whaqqer 3rd Jul 17, 4:12 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    whaqqer
    After re-reading the Newbies section and numerous websites regarding the practice direction, I have rewritten (based on the template in the newbies section ) my LBCCC response and would be grateful for the boards opinions on whether it's a better attempt than my first one.

    Dear Sirs
    Re: PCN xxxxxxxxxxx – Letter Before County Court Claim
    I am writing to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 16th June 2017.
    First, I deny any debt to Parking Control Management (UK) Limited and any court proceedings will be vigorously defended.
    Secondly, there is no reference to your letter being fully compliant with the Practice Direction it is in fact woefully defective and appears to be a deliberate attempt to mislead the recipient.

    Please therefore provide a Letter Before Claim which complies with the requirements of the Practice Direction on Pre-action Conduct and Protocols.
    Areas which you are not compliant are listed below:

    2.1
    The claimant’s letter should give concise details about the matter. This should enable the defendant to understand and investigate the issues without needing to request further information. The letter should include –

    (2) the basis on which the claim is made (i.e. why the claimant says the defendant is liable);
    (3) a clear summary of the facts on which the claim is based;
    (5) if financial loss is claimed, an explanation of how the amount has been calculated; and

    2.2
    The letter should also –
    (1) list the essential documents on which the claimant intends to rely;
    (2) set out the form of ADR (if any) that the claimant considers the most suitable and invite the defendant to agree to this;

    I confirm that I shall then seek advice and submit a formal Response within 30 days of receipt, as required by the Practice Direction.

    Please note, a refusal to comply with the Practice Direction will result in an immediate referral to the Solicitors Regulation Authority for breach of the Principles contained in the SRA Handbook version 8, published on 1st October 2013.

    I trust this will not be necessary, and look forward to receiving a fully compliant letter that covers the areas listed above that were not compliant with the Practice Direction in due course.


    I look forward to your response.
    Yours faithfully
    • whaqqer
    • By whaqqer 4th Jul 17, 11:01 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    whaqqer
    After printing my response and getting ready to post it, I have reviewed the letter received from Gladstones. It states 'Final Reminder' on it. My question is, is this an actual LBCCC that I should respond to or just another letter to be filed?
    The letter is from Gladstones and not a Debt Recovery firm on headed paper.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 4th Jul 17, 11:03 AM
    • 33,044 Posts
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    Quentin
    What does it say about court action?
    • whaqqer
    • By whaqqer 4th Jul 17, 11:12 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    whaqqer
    Hi Quentin,

    It says they may be instructed to issue legal proceedings against me in the County Court. To prevent such action, we invite you to make payment immediately or contact us confirming your proposals in respect of this debt.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Jul 17, 12:42 AM
    • 50,789 Posts
    • 64,201 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Does it ask for payment to a debt collector?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • whaqqer
    • By whaqqer 5th Jul 17, 9:25 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    whaqqer
    I have attached a link to the letter received.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/f77q4iymc66533s/0343_001.pdf?dl=0
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 5th Jul 17, 10:23 AM
    • 15,011 Posts
    • 23,583 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I have attached a link to the letter received.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/f77q4iymc66533s/0343_001.pdf?dl=0
    Originally posted by whaqqer
    .....'we may now be instructed to commence legal proceedings' ......

    This isn't a LBC and can be ignored. The next letter may be a LBC. Deal with that if it happens.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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