IMPORTANT: Please make sure your posts do not contain any personally identifiable information (both your own and that of others). When uploading images, please take care that you have redacted all personal information including QR codes, number plates and reference numbers.

Letter from Wright Hassall acting as POPLA

Options
rachieb77
rachieb77 Posts: 24 Forumite
First Post First Anniversary Combo Breaker
edited 11 April 2016 at 3:58PM in Parking tickets, fines & parking
Hi everyone,

I've received a letter from Wright Hassall Solicitors today, in relation to my appeal being put on hold pending the case of ParkingEye Ltd. v Beavis.

The letter states that Wright Hassall Solicitors have been appointed by the BPA to act as an independent appeals body, under the brand of POPLA.

I've just uploaded a picture of the letter to TinyPic. Here's the link, you'll need to change the "xx" to "tt" (hope it works, first time using TinyPic!): hxxp://tinypic.com/r/fvjshy/9

I'm not clear from the letter if Wright Hassell have received my original evidence from POPLA, they just ask me to provide further evidence within 7 days if I wish.

It appears I can't contact them to verify this as they have said in the letter they will not respond to any correspondence or provide any information related to the appeal (!).

I've tried to log in to track my appeal via the POPLA website to pull my appeal info but it's not letting me log in. I wonder if this is because POPLA are no longer handling the appeals?

Here was my original response to POPLA - the appeal was based on three grounds, not just GPEOL as stated in the letter from Wright Hassall, and included set text from MSE templates.

I'd welcome any advice or tips in terms of whether I should provide additional evidence and if so, how this should be worded. I'm guessing I should go strong on the non-GPEOL points? Thanks in advance.

ORIGINAL APPEAL LETTER

Dear Sir or Madam,

PCN number: XXXX POPLA Verification Code: XXXX Vehicle registration number: XXXX

A parking charge notice was issued by Armtrac Security Services (the Operator) to the vehicle XXXX at 3.02pm on 6 October 2014 for the alleged contravention of "Ticket Expired".

Subsequently, as the owner of the vehicle, I received a Notice to Keeper (NTK) on 19 December 2014 (dated 17 December 2014). The NTK stated that an appeal would only be considered on completion of the owner/driver declaration, in order to identify the driver responsible. I declined the company’s demand to name the driver, which is not required of me as the keeper of the vehicle.

I will not be paying the demand for payment for the following three reasons:

1) The charge is disproportionate and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
The charge of £100 is not based upon any genuine pre-estimate of loss to the Operator or the landowner. According to the Unfair Consumer Contract Regulations, parking charges on private land must not exceed the cost to the landowner during the period the motorist is parked there. In this instance, the £100 charge far exceeds the cost to the landowner of £1, which would have been the cost of an additional hour of parking.

The Operator has submitted a breakdown of the losses they believe they have incurred as a result of the breach. A large part of the pre-estimate of loss (£80) comes from staff costs. The largest amount of these staff costs is £40 for 3 hours of "management" time to carry out "quality control, evidence gathering, appeal assessing and POPLA replies".

The Operator states that "It is estimated that three hours of managers time (two hours senior managers, 1 hour director level) are taken to check and approve the response to each appeal and examine and compile the POPLA evidence pack for submission as well as write any detailed appeal replies such as those to an MP." This means that the senior managers and director are engaging in quality control or management functions. These are not activities which I believe can properly be included in a genuine pre-estimate of loss arising from the charge.

I cannot see how checks on the work of other staff members are amounts that are substantially linked to the loss incurred. I also do not see how general operational costs, such as Accounting and IT, can be considered by the Operator as losses consequential to the parking contravention. Yet these have also been listed amongst the pre-estimation of loss.

In addition, in order for a charge to constitute a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore be enforceable, the Operator has to show that they at first have incurred an initial loss on which any consequential loss is based. There is nothing in the Operator's breakdown of the pre-estimation of loss to show that there was any initial loss. The Operator has only shown that they incurred a loss as a result of the appeals process after issuing the parking charge notice.

The document detailing their genuine pre-estimate of loss specifically states that the costs listed relate to losses incurred "…at the time of issuing the PCN…" yet the majority of the pre-estimation of loss shown relates to the alleged costs incurred after issuing the PCN and as part of the appeals process (equating to approximately £70 of the charge). This means that the Operator has failed to show that the charge is a genuine pre-estimate of loss and it cannot therefore be found to be enforceable.

2) Notice to Keeper issued by the Operator outside of POFA 2012 timescales
As I am under no obligation to disclose the name of the driver and no evidence of the driver's identity has been presented, the only route by which I can be found to be liable for the parking charge is as the keeper of the vehicle. In order for this liability to exist, the Operator must demonstrate compliance with a number of provisions contained within Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

The Notice to Keeper (NTK) failed to meet the obligations of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012. Specifically it did not arrive within the timescales stipulated in the POFA Act 2012, Schedule 4, Point 8 (5). The requirements of the Act clearly state that for a NTK to be valid, it must be delivered not later than 56 days starting with the day after the PCN is issued.

The NTK is dated 17 December 2014 and was delivered on 19 December 2014. This is 74 days after the date that the PCN was issued meaning that the Operator has failed to demonstrate the required compliance and it is therefore too late to invoke keeper liability.

3) No evidence of the Operator's proprietary interest in the land or authority to issue and enforce PCNs in respect of the site
Despite my request to provide evidence of proprietary interest in the land, the Operator has not produced any evidence to demonstrate that it is the land-owner or that they have authority from the landowner to issue and enforce parking charge notices in respect of the site.

The Operator’s implied assertion to that effect is insufficient to show that any authority has been granted. Therefore I do not see how the Operator has sufficient rights in the land to enter into contracts in respect of it

I believe the reasons above give more than sufficient evidence as to why my appeal should be allowed.

Yours sincerely, etc.
«134

Comments

  • dazster
    dazster Posts: 502 Forumite
    Options
    http://tinypic.com/r/fvjshy/9

    This is bloody ridiculous. Old PoPLA could easily have decided your appeal on points 2 and 3.

    Wright Hassall is not independent, it acts for a lot of parking companies. However, rather than telling them and the BPA to shove it up their a**e you could treat this as an opportunity to put them to the test: you could reply to them making your point "2" again, and enclosing a copy of the NtK as evidence (hopefully you still have it!). It would be interesting to see what they make of that!
  • The_Slithy_Tove
    Options
    Interestingly, it seems that the Operator are contending that the charge IS a GPEOL. We know that post-Beavis, they don't need to claim it is a loss, as they can charge what would normally be a penalty, as long as certain criteria are met, e.g. legitimate interest, the charge being prominently displayed. But here they are claiming it IS their loss. Can they suddenly decide it is not after all? (This is PPC-land, so anything is possible.)

    It would be worth putting in a Beavis rebuttal, i.e. say why the Beavis judgement does not apply in your case (legitimate interest? prominent display? was it a P&D car park?). Also say that as the Operator is claiming it is a loss to them, Beavis or no Beavis, these are not losses.
  • Guys_Dad
    Guys_Dad Posts: 11,025 Forumite
    First Post Combo Breaker
    Options
    I would stick to sending them in the original non-GPEOL appeal points again, more targeted and I agree with Dazster about any proof of non compliance.

    Also make the point that in view of the latest post on the Prankster's blog where a different BPA PPC did NOT have authority to operate on the land in question and were thrown out in open court, you demand that Parking Eye furnish proof of that authority. Have a look on the Parking Prankster's blog and quote the court, if you like.
  • dazster
    dazster Posts: 502 Forumite
    Options
    Yes, the trouble with saying anything about losses or Beavis is that they might simply respond with "Beavis lost, so you do too".

    n.b. this one is Armtrac, not PE, but otherwise the point stands.
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,401 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Photogenic
    Options
    As this is very new and forum strategy will be developing, it will be worth your while keeping an eye on other similar threads emerging on this forum and on PePiPoo.

    Here are some links:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=105274

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=105269

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=105259
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,401 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Photogenic
    Options
    And another with some sage advice from highly respected PePiPoo contributor Gan.

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=97927&st=60&#entry1166408
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 132,005 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post Photogenic First Anniversary
    edited 11 April 2016 at 6:28PM
    Options
    I'm guessing I should go strong on the non-GPEOL points?

    Yes, I think I would reiterate points 2 and 3 first, quoting 'old' (pre-September) POPLA's Lead Adjudicator himself at EVERY opportunity:

    - http://popla.org.uk/

    click on the 'Final Report' of POPLA (London Councils style).

    Copy this and anything else you see that's useful to summarise the fairness of the old POPLA service. Use Henry Greenslade's name and mention his 'high integrity' and 'fair reputation' as a longstanding Lead Adjudicator of parking ticket appeals across the board (Council statutory tribunals as well as private parking issues via POPLA).

    Quote him from the Final Report:

    ''At POPLA, Assessors consider the evidence produced by each party, all of which evidence the other party has the opportunity to see and comment upon.''


    Then quote him from page 15 of the POPLA Annual Report 2015:

    https://popla.co.uk/docs/default-source/default-document-library/popla_annualreport_2015.pdf?sfvrsn=2

    “…it is certainly a basic principle of a fair appeals service that each party is given the opportunity to see the other party’s case and to comment upon it. This is the position at POPLA. Appellants should obviously receive the operator’s evidence in its entirety.''

    Re that sentence, state that if the parking firm in the material case are also going to be offered the opportunity to comment or add any evidence at all, you therefore expect this temporary fix 'POPLA brand' to honour the service you signed up for. You require the same service extended to you as a consumer, as promised by the POPLA process you signed up for in 2015. This means you WILL be allowed the opportunity to comment upon any evidence now added by the operator and you expect more time to do so if this is the case.

    Then quote this from Mr Greenslade from the Final Report from LondonCouncils' POPLA:

    ''PARKINGEYE LTD V BEAVIS
    Once the decision of the Supreme Court is known, parties will naturally have an opportunity to make further representations before the matter is finally determined.''

    If Armtrac did not send you ANY evidence pack before now at all, point this out as a breach of the BPA CoP and breach of POPLA processes and again, quote the Lead Adjudicator about Late Evidence being too late (further reps being allowed are one thing, but no evidence pack at all for a year is clearly far too late).

    Page 14 of the POPLA 2015 report confirms this approach:

    ''Late evidence
    In any fair appeals service, it is obvious that each party must have the
    opportunity to see all the evidence of the other. If one party delays submitting original or additional evidence to POPLA until just before the scheduled date of determination, the Assessor may have to adjourn the matter for a short period in order for the other party can see the evidence and, should they wish, comment upon it.

    Operators should therefore ensure that their evidence is sent to POPLA and to the appellant in good time. Many operators now send their evidence to POPLA and the appellant simultaneously by email. This provides clear evidence as to the date it was sent, should any issue arise.

    The evidence checklist, correctly completed, must always be included with the operator’s evidence pack. The date stated on it, as to when evidence was sent to the appellant, should accurately reflect this fact. It is good practice for all operators to include the checklist with the evidence sent to the appellant. This ensures that exactly the same pack is before the appellant as is before the Assessor. It also means that the appellant can confirm that the stated number of pages have been received. Paragraph 22.16 of the BPA Code requires operators to keep to the processes and other requirements of POPLA.''


    So, having set that out, here are your further representations:

    - reiterate the late NTK but this time, copy & quote the timescale from Schedule 4 of the POFA directly from the Schedule. State that London Councils POPLA, always, without fail, found in favour of appellant keepers in this scenario of course and a keeper did not have to produce a copy of the NTK themselves (the paperwork fell to the operator to produce, under the POPLA rules).

    Remind WH that there is no lawful 'back door' to the question of keeper liability on private land and this is a case which should have been decided in 2015 by 'old' POPLA due to this fact. A failure by the operator to follow due process from the Act regarding mandatory Notice to Keeper deadlines, means that a registered keeper cannot - without intellectual dishonesty and flagrant disregard of the POFA Schedule 4 - be held liable for a parking charge. A driver cannot be assumed and nor can a keeper be otherwise held liable for this charge, in any way whatsoever, in UK law.

    State that this too was confirmed by Mr Greenslade the Lead Adjudicator in page 8 of the 2015 POPLA Report:

    ''Service of notices

    A notice to keeper issued on the basis of evidence obtained using automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) should arrive on or before the fourteenth day after the parking event. Where a parking charge notice is fixed to the vehicle or handed to the driver, a traditional ‘parking ticket’, then a notice to keeper issued following that, should arrive between the twenty eighth and the fifty sixth day after the parking event. If these timescales are not complied with then keeper liability does not generally pass under Schedule 4.''


    - then reiterate the lack of landowner authority. State that old POPLA always, without fail, found in favour of a consumer appellant when an operator failed to prove they had the authority of the landowner in accordance with para 7 of the BPA CoP. That included as a policy, disregarding any evidence not shown to an appellant so the operator cannot add it now for WH to consider.

    Then quote section 7 including the nitty gritty in 7.3, in its entirety and say if the operator's evidence fails to show any of the BPA requirements then the omissions must be interpreted in the way which favours the consumer. For example, witness statements which do not set out the requirements listed in 7.3 would have failed under 'old POPLA', as would any letter or site agreement with ambiguous detail, ambiguous dates, heavily redacted sections or which are only signed by a managing agent or other non-landowner agent. Old POPLA always rejected this sort of evidence because it fails to show authority flowing from the landowner to the operator and too much redacted information usually meant that the detail in section 7.3 of the CoP was not evidenced properly, if at all.

    Link the applicable CoP which was the October 2014 version for all these cases:

    http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS_Code_of_Practice_October_2014_update_V5..pdf

    Then you could attempt a 'not like Beavis' argument which at least puts Armtrac to strict proof of the fundamental issues which rendered the 'penalty rule' to be unusually, disengaged in ParkingEye's contract. Tell WH that you require Armtrac to state their legitimate interest and show their 'clear and prominent signage' with all terms and the charge itself, shown in 'large lettering' (believed to be 96 point font in Beavis). You require these matters to be clarified if Armtrac are contesting the appeal, so that their signage can be compared to the signage in the Beavis case. And of course, in keeping with the clear stated policy of Mr Greenslade, if the operator supplies signage photos and/or any argument at all about the Beavis case or any other matter, you will require sight of that new evidence and fair time (at least 21 days) to consider it and to finally respond.

    The Supreme Court did not abolish the ‘penalty rule’ for all 'parking charges' nor for all consumer contracts, stating at 36:

    ‘’Miss Smith QC, who appeared for Cavendish argued, the judges should now take the opportunity to abolish it. But this is not the way in which English law develops, and we do not consider that judicial abolition would be a proper course for this court to take.’’

    The judgment only related to THAT car park, THAT commercial set up with the landowner and THOSE ‘brief, clear, prominent’ signs which state the charge in large lettering. And the decision arose because ‘’the consumer gets the benefit of free parking in that unusually attractively located car park for two hours.’’

    This was not a comparable contract nor was the charge in this case, supported by a comparable commercial justification. Indeed this pay and display arrangement was a 'standard financial contract' that the Court of Appeal remarked was 'entirely different' from the Beavis case.

    The Supreme Court did not suggest that the Beavis decision was in any way applicable to every car park and parking ‘charge’ situation. Indeed, they were at pains to rush out a Tweet within 24 hours of the Beavis Judgment being handed down, making it clear that the judgment was unique and applicable only to that case:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/UKSupremeCourt/status/661846322417397760

    UK Supreme Court– Verified account ‏@UKSupremeCourt

    Parking charge “neither extravagant nor unconscionable… taking into account use of this particular car park & clear wording of the notices”

    Lord Mance at 191: '' ...(Schedule 4, paragraph 1). The reference to a relevant “obligation” does not exclude the penalty doctrine. On the contrary, if a charge stipulated contractually is a penalty, there will be no obligation.’’

    Lord Hodge at 247: ‘’The focus on the disproportion between the specified sum and damage capable of pre-estimation makes sense in the context of a damages clause but is an artificial concept if applied to clauses which have another commercial justification.’’

    In ParkingEye v Beavis at 32, it was made clear that a test has to be considered in every case and an interest will 'RARELY' extend beyond the usual penalty rule (Lord Dunedin's four tests):

    ''The true test is whether the impugned provision is a secondary obligation which imposes a detriment on the contract-breaker out of all proportion to any legitimate interest of the [...parking company...] in the enforcement of the primary obligation. The [...parking operator...] can have no proper interest in simply punishing the defaulter. His interest is in performance or in some appropriate alternative to performance. In the case of a straightforward damages clause, that interest will rarely extend beyond compensation for the breach, and we therefore expect that Lord Dunedin’s four tests would usually be perfectly adequate to determine its validity.''

    LORD NEUBERGER AND LORD SUMPTION: (with whom Lord Carnwath agrees) found at 9: ''The distinction between a clause providing for a genuine pre-estimate of damages and a penalty clause has remained fundamental to the modern law, as it is currently understood. The question whether a damages clause is a penalty falls to be decided as a matter of construction, therefore as at the time that it is agreed…This is because it depends on the character of the provision, not on the circumstances in which it falls to be enforced.''

    It is believed that this operator argued in the rejection letter and PCN that this charge in this case was a sum of 'damages' or 'loss'. Even given the chance to comment on the Beavis case now, an operator cannot later change the construction of a charge that fell to them to decide in advance. No "legitimate interest'' can be inferred just because there was seen to be such justification in the Beavis case.

    So, a charge which was contructed as a damages clause last year, fails when compared to Lord Dunedin's tests for a penalty, which were considered 'a useful tool' in deciding standard damages clause contracts like this one. In the alternative, it fails when compared to the Beavis case because the signage does not match up to the large lettering/prominent terms requirement.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 132,005 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post Photogenic First Anniversary
    Options
    Haven't yet read any other forum advice being formulated but I reckon the POPLA Adjudicator's words could be key because WH can't very easily go against the Lead Adjudicator of the service they are supposedly fulfilling.

    And the Beavis case helps in that final quote I put in the reply above (shown again below) because we can trip PPCs up on what they argued their charge was in 2015:

    LORD NEUBERGER AND LORD SUMPTION: (with whom Lord Carnwath agrees) found at 9:

    ''The distinction between a clause providing for a genuine pre-estimate of damages and a penalty clause has remained fundamental to the modern law, as it is currently understood. The question whether a damages clause is a penalty falls to be decided as a matter of construction, therefore as at the time that it is agreed…This is because it depends on the character of the provision, not on the circumstances in which it falls to be enforced.''
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Marktheshark
    Marktheshark Posts: 5,841 Forumite
    First Post Combo Breaker First Anniversary
    Options
    I would write back rejecting the offer as arbitration has to be independent and Wright hassle are engaged in litigation and debt collection of parking charge notices.
    I would add you will only accept a alternative dispute resolution service that is independent of the parking industry.

    Or you can just send the template response and await the rejection and subsequent court papers.
    Personally I say start the fight now
    I do Contracts, all day every day.
  • Guys_Dad
    Guys_Dad Posts: 11,025 Forumite
    First Post Combo Breaker
    Options
    Coupon-mad wrote: »
    Haven't yet read any other forum advice being formulated but I reckon the POPLA Adjudicator's words could be key because WH can't very easily go against the Lead Adjudicator of the service they are supposedly fulfilling.

    And the Beavis case helps in that final quote I put in the reply above (shown again below) because we can trip PPCs up on what they argued their charge was in 2015:

    LORD NEUBERGER AND LORD SUMPTION: (with whom Lord Carnwath agrees) found at 9:

    ''The distinction between a clause providing for a genuine pre-estimate of damages and a penalty clause has remained fundamental to the modern law, as it is currently understood. The question whether a damages clause is a penalty falls to be decided as a matter of construction, therefore as at the time that it is agreed…This is because it depends on the character of the provision, not on the circumstances in which it falls to be enforced.''

    You are correct, but I think that any reference to GPEOL in the WH 2nd appeal offer would be a mistake. The chances are that some junior in the firm (if they have any) will be designated to deal with this. They will be on a very tight time allowance to deal with the appeal in order to make any money and will not take time to consider the nuances that you outline.

    I think that GPEOL should not appear in the 2nd stage appeal at all and people should concentrate on the other points.

    Also, we are fortunate for having recent cases thrown out by the Cardiff court only last week. See the Parking Prankster's blog. A PPC was trying to charge motorists where they had no landowner authority whatsoever, despite being vetted by the BPA.

    So, you MUST refer to this in your 2nd appeal and demand that the PPC provides a copy of the contract identifying the area in question and their authority to act as a 2nd stage appeal point, and refuse to accept any so called witness statements as an alternative.
This discussion has been closed.
Meet your Ambassadors

Categories

  • All Categories
  • 343.3K Banking & Borrowing
  • 250.1K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
  • 449.8K Spending & Discounts
  • 235.4K Work, Benefits & Business
  • 608.3K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
  • 173.1K Life & Family
  • 248K Travel & Transport
  • 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
  • 15.9K Discuss & Feedback
  • 15.1K Coronavirus Support Boards