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  • FIRST POST
    • blackwhitefraud2015
    • By blackwhitefraud2015 24th Aug 15, 4:16 PM
    • 7Posts
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    blackwhitefraud2015
    Black&White Case of Fraud?
    • #1
    • 24th Aug 15, 4:16 PM
    Black&White Case of Fraud? 24th Aug 15 at 4:16 PM
    Hello! I've had a skim through the stickys but couldn't find the advice i was looking for.

    I was "issued" an "invoice" by UKPC on Sunday claiming I was parked for over 2 hours in a free retail car park, I checked their website to see their photo evidence. They have photos of my car watermarked at 2:06pm and 4:18pm.

    The only problem is I only arrived at around 3:15pm
    I have 2 businesses (ironically part of the same chain) in different places that prove i was not in the car park when they claim i was. I'm also fairly sure i can get at least one traffic camera footage to show re-iterate this.

    Unlike most users I'm not looking to simply appeal against this, as I believe faking this kind of evidence constitutes fraud and these companies are not only taking advantage, but also totally inventing evidence against motorists. I think at very least the parking attendant should lose his job for clearly changing the clock on his camera.

    I have yet to "appeal" against the invoice.


    My questions:

    should i write to appeal to the company?

    Who should I be contacting regarding my claim of fraud (or something similar)


    What's the furthest I can take this? based on me having photo evidence to the contrary and their photos having clearly being taken within moments of each other i.e shadows are the same place, vehicles are still parked next to me


    I've already contacted the following:

    CAB
    Trading Standards
    POPLA
    BPA (Very rude indeed)

    I haven't left my personal info with these organisations.


    Many Thanks for your advice!
Page 1
    • bod1467
    • By bod1467 24th Aug 15, 4:22 PM
    • 14,799 Posts
    • 13,457 Thanks
    bod1467
    • #2
    • 24th Aug 15, 4:22 PM
    • #2
    • 24th Aug 15, 4:22 PM
    This was in England/Wales?
    • blackwhitefraud2015
    • By blackwhitefraud2015 24th Aug 15, 4:24 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    blackwhitefraud2015
    • #3
    • 24th Aug 15, 4:24 PM
    • #3
    • 24th Aug 15, 4:24 PM
    Yes this was in England

    (thankyou for your response)
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 24th Aug 15, 4:26 PM
    • 6,272 Posts
    • 5,093 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #4
    • 24th Aug 15, 4:26 PM
    • #4
    • 24th Aug 15, 4:26 PM
    Trading Standards are the people responsible, but you should only approach them in writing, otherwise they will fob you off with CAB, Consumer Direct, or other useless timewasters.


    You might also like to contact the landowner, your local paper, radio station, and all the shops/restaurants served by the car park. If you bought anything in the retail park threaten to return it.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • blackwhitefraud2015
    • By blackwhitefraud2015 24th Aug 15, 4:29 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    blackwhitefraud2015
    • #5
    • 24th Aug 15, 4:29 PM
    • #5
    • 24th Aug 15, 4:29 PM
    Hello, Thank you!

    The business i dealt with were in fact incredible at providing their footage of when I arrived.
    I did attempt to contact national newspapers but apparently they aren't legally allowed to run with it unless its the result of court proceedings, are local newspapers different?

    I will also write trading standards a letter.
    • Castle
    • By Castle 24th Aug 15, 4:38 PM
    • 1,179 Posts
    • 1,524 Thanks
    Castle
    • #6
    • 24th Aug 15, 4:38 PM
    • #6
    • 24th Aug 15, 4:38 PM
    ICO (Information Commissioner's office); as no reasonable cause to request your details from DVLA, so breach of the 1998 Data Protection Act.
    • blackwhitefraud2015
    • By blackwhitefraud2015 24th Aug 15, 4:50 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    blackwhitefraud2015
    • #7
    • 24th Aug 15, 4:50 PM
    • #7
    • 24th Aug 15, 4:50 PM
    Hello Castle,

    Is there a preferred way to action this quickly?
    • Castle
    • By Castle 24th Aug 15, 5:10 PM
    • 1,179 Posts
    • 1,524 Thanks
    Castle
    • #8
    • 24th Aug 15, 5:10 PM
    • #8
    • 24th Aug 15, 5:10 PM
    Hello Castle,

    Is there a preferred way to action this quickly?
    Originally posted by blackwhitefraud2015
    Not really as ICO insist on you taking the matter up with the other company first before they will investigate.
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 24th Aug 15, 5:14 PM
    • 3,182 Posts
    • 4,564 Thanks
    The Slithy Tove
    • #9
    • 24th Aug 15, 5:14 PM
    • #9
    • 24th Aug 15, 5:14 PM
    Is there a preferred way to action this quickly?
    Originally posted by blackwhitefraud2015
    There's no "quick" way to sort this. Many experienced people here will tell you that you will meet a wall of lies, buck-passing and plain stonewalling. And that's from public bodies like the DVLA as well as the PPCs and their trade bodies.

    You'll need to start by challenging UKPC themselves, basically saying "the vehicle in question was not there at the times you claim, please provide verifiable* evidence otherwise."

    Then a formal complaint to the DVLA around the illegal release of the keeper details (as UKPC had no reasonable cause). You'll be brushed off there, with the DVLA fobbing you off to the BPA. Don't take it from them - the DVLA are completely corrupt in this regard and need to be taken to task. You'll end up having to go to the ICO, and when they also fob you off, it'll be your MP. It'll take ages; you'll need to be persistent.

    Don't be rude, just firm and precise in what you allege and want from them. Any waffle will simply allow them to avoid your questions and waffle themselves. A few, punchy, well worded demands/questions in a way that a direct answer will skewer them or a non-answer will be obvious avoidance is the way to go (on Pepipoo, Gan is a master at such correspondence).

    *I think there's something in the NEWBIES sticky regarding ANPR accuracy and how to challenge it.
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 24th Aug 15, 6:19 PM
    • 4,725 Posts
    • 4,178 Thanks
    Herzlos
    If you believe it's straight up fraud (which it appears to be - though they'll tell you it was an admin error*), pop down to your local constabulary and get a crime reference number. Give this reference number to the BPA and DVLA.


    *I can't figure out how they'd managed to mistake your entry time like that unless they changed the clock, and they'd know that's happened.
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 24th Aug 15, 7:05 PM
    • 1,989 Posts
    • 2,849 Thanks
    fisherjim
    Ahhh the loathsome UKPC, if ever there was a bunch of scammers, Herzlos is probably right, when you challenge this bunch with irrefutable evidence, or a challenge they can't win they come up with the old "admin error" excuse.
    The old boys club they pay to belong to, The BPA always believe them, their corrupt bonus hungry attendants use cheap, Argos, easily messed with digital cameras which cannot be time synchronised or locked.
    I wonder how the new appeals service would deal with a challenge on camera synchronisation records and procedures!
    To quote the words of the great Count Arthur Strong "You Couldn't make it up"
    • blackwhitefraud2015
    • By blackwhitefraud2015 24th Aug 15, 10:48 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    blackwhitefraud2015
    Thank you everyone for your replies, I'm happily in this for the long run, I think it's disgusting that these companies operate the way they do, but just plain targeting a car and making times up leaves you feeling defiled.

    I'll do a little more research and make my claim for them to drop their invoice, when that's settled I'll take it further.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 24th Aug 15, 11:44 PM
    • 3,492 Posts
    • 4,895 Thanks
    Half_way
    Personally i think its equally as disgusting that Companies and others think its acceptable to let the parking parasites onto their land, especially the big landowners/retail park owners and supermarkets who should know better ( and probably do )
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • HO87
    • By HO87 25th Aug 15, 3:37 AM
    • 4,188 Posts
    • 7,505 Thanks
    HO87
    You suggest that you only arrived at the location at 3.15pm. What time did you leave?

    You have asserted that this appears to be fraud and whilst I am no fan of UKPC might this not be the result of misidentification? ANPR systems do not have a 100% success rate and misreads are relatively common. Similarly, could this have been caused by a clock error?
    My very sincere apologies for those hoping to request off-board assistance but I am now so inundated with requests that in order to do justice to those "already in the system" I am no longer accepting PM's and am unlikely to do so for the foreseeable future (August 2016).

    For those seeking more detailed advice and guidance regarding small claims cases arising from private parking issues I recommend that you visit the Private Parking forum on PePiPoo.com
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 25th Aug 15, 9:06 AM
    • 6,272 Posts
    • 5,093 Thanks
    The Deep
    HO87, all of the above may well be possible, but UKPC rely on these cameras to raise money, they have to be accurate.


    If a butcher has scales which give short measure, he can still be prosecuted, whether he is aware of it or not.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • blackwhitefraud2015
    • By blackwhitefraud2015 25th Aug 15, 10:28 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    blackwhitefraud2015
    Hello H087,

    The ticket was issued at 16:18 there is one chap in the car park who takes the evidence pictures with a hand held camera ( I have no idea how they could ever claim anybody was in the car park for too long as that would require him to photograph every single vehicle on entry)
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 25th Aug 15, 11:00 AM
    • 9,865 Posts
    • 8,829 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    Personally, I would write the PPC a letter stating that you are accusing them of fraud. That you did not enter and leave at these times, that you have photographic and written evidence from two other cameras proving that you were elsewhere during these times and that unless the cancel the charge immediately, you intend to put the matter in the hands of their trade association, trading standards and the police.

    You should say where thephotographic evidence you have comes from and go in hard.
    • blackwhitefraud2015
    • By blackwhitefraud2015 25th Aug 15, 3:01 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    blackwhitefraud2015
    Thank You all for your help so far!

    I've sent this on the appeal form, I don't feel there's any particular reason to be confidential about these matters.

    This vehicle was not in the car park at the claimed times. The vehicle arrived at approximately 3:15pm and was ticketed at 4:18pm. Your attendant's pictures are clearly taken moments apart. I have 4 independent sources to show the vehicle's whereabouts that prove it could not possibly have been in the car park at 2:06pm. I'm concerned either your attendant or UKPC are actively trying to defraud me by editing these pictures to make false claims.
    I invite you to provide me with verifiable evidence (other than the provided pictures taken on what I can only assume is a digital camera with no time lock) or to take the case to court at which point I will provide the CCTV evidence that proves this vehicle was elsewhere at the alleged entry time.
    • patman99
    • By patman99 25th Aug 15, 10:01 PM
    • 7,758 Posts
    • 9,151 Thanks
    patman99
    If you are confident enough to appear in front of a camera, you could do a decent video news item looking into this practice. Channel 4's 'Despatches' program loves things like these.
    Never Knowingly Understood.

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    • HO87
    • By HO87 25th Aug 15, 10:50 PM
    • 4,188 Posts
    • 7,505 Thanks
    HO87
    HO87, all of the above may well be possible, but UKPC rely on these cameras to raise money, they have to be accurate.

    If a butcher has scales which give short measure, he can still be prosecuted, whether he is aware of it or not.
    Originally posted by The Deep
    As it happens it would seem that ANPR was not in use here - although this was not immediately apparent.

    Comparing the use of scales, for which there are well established standards and means of testing, with ANPR is hardly reasonable. Scales perform one function (unless they have a pricing mechanism attached). Where is the standard for ANPR? That is the issue here, there isn't one and whilst we might reasonably expect the systems to be accurate the fact is that many are not some being far worse than others.

    To complicate that the issue is not necessarily with the system directly unreliability could be aggravated by poor installations, poor equipment or equipment that is badly located (both lenses, cameras and illuminators) and that doesn't even factor in the human aspect. The software at the business end also has to be reliable and used reliably. Without doubt some PPC's use one of the standard reports built into the (various) software which records unmatched entries and exits. (records that show a single entry or exit and no related exit or entry - if you know what I mean). They do so because it provides easy money. What they may choose to ignore is the misread report that shows records - hopefully with stills - of vehicles where no recognisable number was identified.

    Until a standard is devised (it has been attempted) then your observation is, sadly, little more than aspirational. How many users of ANPR systems actually want it to be that accurate? The police do and even their systems are not that close to 100% reliable although they won't admit the actual figure.

    That aside it seems that UKPC rely on a hand-held camera used by an operative. In which case I would ask that UKPC produce the photographs taken by that operative during his day's duties - in sequence. That should prove one way or the other whether the shots have been tampered with.
    My very sincere apologies for those hoping to request off-board assistance but I am now so inundated with requests that in order to do justice to those "already in the system" I am no longer accepting PM's and am unlikely to do so for the foreseeable future (August 2016).

    For those seeking more detailed advice and guidance regarding small claims cases arising from private parking issues I recommend that you visit the Private Parking forum on PePiPoo.com
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