Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • vansboy
    • By vansboy 23rd Jun 07, 5:56 PM
    • 5,564Posts
    • 3,930Thanks
    vansboy
    Agricultural tie on property
    • #1
    • 23rd Jun 07, 5:56 PM
    Agricultural tie on property 23rd Jun 07 at 5:56 PM
    Is there a legal way you can buy a house, with this clause, on it's purchase - not sure what you need to do?

    The place we'v just seen has a paddock & stable block, so not looking to change it's use, just make use of the facility, that's already there!

    Thanks in advance!

    VB
Page 1
  • wecanhelpu
    • #2
    • 23rd Jun 07, 6:02 PM
    • #2
    • 23rd Jun 07, 6:02 PM
    I'm not quite sure what you mean.

    Or what you are trying to do.
    • vansboy
    • By vansboy 23rd Jun 07, 6:06 PM
    • 5,564 Posts
    • 3,930 Thanks
    vansboy
    • #3
    • 23rd Jun 07, 6:06 PM
    • #3
    • 23rd Jun 07, 6:06 PM
    The agent states, the purchaser must be employed/related to someone within agriculture or forestry industries, for them to be able to buy the property.

    VB
  • wecanhelpu
    • #4
    • 23rd Jun 07, 6:08 PM
    • #4
    • 23rd Jun 07, 6:08 PM
    Nah.

    That's rubbish. Have alook at these websites

    http://www.sblaw.co.uk/agriculturaloccupancy.asp

    http://www.smallholder.co.uk/smallholderforums/buyingasmallholding/view.php?threadid=1254
    • BTman
    • By BTman 23rd Jun 07, 6:19 PM
    • 336 Posts
    • 326 Thanks
    BTman
    • #5
    • 23rd Jun 07, 6:19 PM
    • #5
    • 23rd Jun 07, 6:19 PM
    Register a company and grow some beans...
    • Debt_Free_Chick
    • By Debt_Free_Chick 25th Jun 07, 9:33 AM
    • 13,150 Posts
    • 9,492 Thanks
    Debt_Free_Chick
    • #6
    • 25th Jun 07, 9:33 AM
    • #6
    • 25th Jun 07, 9:33 AM
    I may have misunderstood, but both of those links give ways of "getting around" the agricultural tie - but they don't deny that they exist and that they can be enforced.

    In our Parish, you can bet that if any agri-tie is breached, then someone will complain to the Enforcement Officer at the Local Planning Authority.

    As indicated in both those links, if the tie has not been honoured for 10 years or more, one can apply for a Certificate of Lawful Use - essentially, the LPA acknowledges that the planning condition is no longer effective.

    However, in addition to any planning condition, which would require the occupant (or spouse) to be mainly employed in agriculture/forestry in the Parish, there is also often a completely separate legal agreement (Section 52 Agreement). The removal of this is an entirely separate legal process, which might need to be completed, in addition to getting any Certificate of Lawful Use.

    You should really get advice from your solicitor on this. If the current owners ARE employed mainly in agriculture, then you will be in breach of the planning condition if you buy and you are not employed in agriculture. You will then need to occupy the property for 10 years - undetected - before you can apply for the Certificate of Lawful Use. In the meantime, you face possible detection and then enforcement action.

    If the current owners have not complied with the condition for the past 10 years, it really begs the question why they have not applied for the Certificate :confused:

    For more information put

    agriculture section 52 agreement

    or

    agriculture occupancy condition planning

    into Google.
    • Debt_Free_Chick
    • By Debt_Free_Chick 25th Jun 07, 9:37 AM
    • 13,150 Posts
    • 9,492 Thanks
    Debt_Free_Chick
    • #7
    • 25th Jun 07, 9:37 AM
    • #7
    • 25th Jun 07, 9:37 AM
    Register a company
    Originally posted by BTman
    Not necessary

    and grow some beans...
    Probably not sufficient.

    The tie is usually phrased as ... "The occupation of the dwelling shall be limited to a person solely or mainly working, or last working, in the locality in agriculture or in forestry"

    So growing beans "as a side line" would not be sufficient. One's occupation would be tested i.e. what you do to earn a living - not what you do as a hobby
    • Debt_Free_Chick
    • By Debt_Free_Chick 25th Jun 07, 9:50 AM
    • 13,150 Posts
    • 9,492 Thanks
    Debt_Free_Chick
    • #8
    • 25th Jun 07, 9:50 AM
    • #8
    • 25th Jun 07, 9:50 AM
    Is there a legal way you can buy a house, with this clause, on it's purchase - not sure what you need to do?

    The place we'v just seen has a paddock & stable block, so not looking to change it's use, just make use of the facility, that's already there!
    Originally posted by vansboy
    How strange! It sounds as though this is Equestrian use which - believe it or not - is NOT agricultural. For planning use, agricultural is not the same as equestrian.

    You need to get more details from the EA and then speak to the Local Planning Authority.

    If your occupation is to be from legitimate use of the land, then you should be OK.

    A word of warning though .... if the current owner has converted the use from agriculture to equestrian, then they would have needed a form a planning permission to change the use of the land. Did they get this? If not, how long has the land been equestrian? If 10 years or more, they should apply for a Certificate of Lawful Use so that the land is now re-classified as equestrian and the old agricultural tie is lifted.

    You need more information from the EA in the first instance.
  • monzaman
    • #9
    • 14th Dec 08, 2:31 PM
    Agricultural Tie
    • #9
    • 14th Dec 08, 2:31 PM
    I am just about to by a bungalow and have been advised that it has a tie which restricts the ownership to people working in agriculture or forrestry.
    The present owner has lived there for 33 years and was unaware of the tie.
    He has nothing to do with agriculture or forrestry, the bungalow sits on 2 acres mainly laid to lawn.
    The property is 5 bedroom and valued in excess of 500K.
    My question is would I be able to apply to hve the tie lifted or is it the present owner who should apply for it.
    Does any one know how long the application takes.
    Any help appreciated.
    • Running Horse
    • By Running Horse 14th Dec 08, 7:29 PM
    • 8,788 Posts
    • 14,609 Thanks
    Running Horse
    Presumably if he lifts the tie the price will skyrocket. How could he not know?
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 14th Dec 08, 7:39 PM
    • 7,784 Posts
    • 5,394 Thanks
    lincroft1710
    monzaman - firstly, far easier for current owner to get restriction lifted. Secondly, was it your solicitor who advised you, as a few years ago I came across a case (slightly different circs) where owners believed ag restrictionin existence, but council had no record of this.
  • monzaman
    The document came from the owners solicitor.
    The present owner inherited the bungalow from his parents and is adamant that he did know about the tie.
    He is looking at ways to get it lifted.
    We were due to exchange contracts in a weeks time but this has put a spanner in the works, any idea of the time scales involved.
    • Debt_Free_Chick
    • By Debt_Free_Chick 14th Dec 08, 9:56 PM
    • 13,150 Posts
    • 9,492 Thanks
    Debt_Free_Chick
    I am just about to by a bungalow and have been advised that it has a tie which restricts the ownership to people working in agriculture or forrestry.
    The present owner has lived there for 33 years and was unaware of the tie.
    He has nothing to do with agriculture or forrestry, the bungalow sits on 2 acres mainly laid to lawn.
    The property is 5 bedroom and valued in excess of 500K.
    My question is would I be able to apply to hve the tie lifted or is it the present owner who should apply for it.
    Does any one know how long the application takes.
    Any help appreciated.
    Originally posted by monzaman
    Current owner should apply for a "Change of Use". He/She will need to supply evidence such as sworn affidavits.

    I'm pretty sure that the local planning authority (Council) have to allow 4 weeks notice from the date you submit your application, but expect the process to be much, much longer. I assume the property is in a rural area? If so, then there will be a general resistance against allowing this property to revert to residential, so any evidence will be very closely scrutinised.
    Warning ..... I'm a peri-menopausal axe-wielding maniac
  • monzaman
    The property is semi rural, one neighbour manufactures ornimental electric gates, the other makes kitchen units.
    Neither side have the tie on thier properties.
    No agriculture in the close proximity.
    • Richard Webster
    • By Richard Webster 15th Dec 08, 10:43 AM
    • 7,250 Posts
    • 6,905 Thanks
    Richard Webster
    If the seller can show that the condition has been breached continuously for over 10 years then he can apply for a certificate of lawful use - which is not the same as applying for planning permission for a change of use. The former relies on proving facts i.e. the occupier was not employed in agriculture/forestry (or whatever the condition says) - the latter requires proof that the condition no longer serves a useful purpose and compliance with the the planning authority's requirements as to advertising etc usually for a year or more.

    The seller will need to do something like obtain a certificate of lawful use. If he had it marketed for £500K and didn't know about the ag-tie then one would have assumed that the agents didn't know about it either and the price would be lower with it. So OP simply either withdraws (if he is getting a mortgage) or offers about 30% less to reflect the ag-tie. If they can obtain a certificate of lawful use on proof of long continuous breach then that is the easiest route for them to follow and they will do that pretty quickly, won't they? Otherwise value of property falls.
    RICHARD WEBSTER

    As a retired conveyancing solicitor I believe the information given in the post to be useful assuming any properties concerned are in England/Wales but I accept no liability for it.
    • Debt_Free_Chick
    • By Debt_Free_Chick 15th Dec 08, 10:46 AM
    • 13,150 Posts
    • 9,492 Thanks
    Debt_Free_Chick
    If the seller can show that the condition has been breached continuously for over 10 years then he can apply for a certificate of lawful use - which is not the same as applying for planning permission for a change of use. The former relies on proving facts i.e. the occupier was not employed in agriculture/forestry (or whatever the condition says) - the latter requires proof that the condition no longer serves a useful purpose and compliance with the the planning authority's requirements as to advertising etc usually for a year or more.
    Originally posted by Richard Webster
    Thanks for clarifying that ..... don't know what I was thinking. Too late and one too many I should think
    Warning ..... I'm a peri-menopausal axe-wielding maniac
  • monzaman
    Thanks for the good advice Richard.
    If a certificate of Lawfull Use was granted how would this affect the property price if I sold the property in the future.
    Do you know what time scales this would take.
    • Richard Webster
    • By Richard Webster 15th Dec 08, 2:08 PM
    • 7,250 Posts
    • 6,905 Thanks
    Richard Webster
    Shouldn't reduce normal market value of a proeprty without any ag-tie but you would need to be careful that you complied with whatever certificate was given as to the use. For instance I would expect a lawful use certificate to say that it was lawful to use the property without complying with condition X (the ag-tie) of the relevant planning permission. Virtually anyone could comply with that.

    If it was more limited in some way then there could be problems,e.g they might try to ite the use of the hosue with the use of the land so that even if the house was not occupied by a farmer the land would still have to be used for farming, e.g by another farmer under a tenancy or grazing licence.

    Another point that the sellers will need to watch is that they have to show continuous non-agricultural occupation - so if the property was empty for a period this would stop the continuity!
    RICHARD WEBSTER

    As a retired conveyancing solicitor I believe the information given in the post to be useful assuming any properties concerned are in England/Wales but I accept no liability for it.
  • dalli
    i have recently bought my dads house of him with an ag tie on it i have no connections to agriculter, my question is ,is it possible to get planning permision on a plot of land that came with house or does the tie have to be lifted .

    many thanks
    • Debt_Free_Chick
    • By Debt_Free_Chick 9th Feb 09, 9:52 AM
    • 13,150 Posts
    • 9,492 Thanks
    Debt_Free_Chick
    i have recently bought my dads house of him with an ag tie on it i have no connections to agriculter, my question is ,is it possible to get planning permision on a plot of land that came with house or does the tie have to be lifted .

    many thanks
    Originally posted by dalli
    Get the tie lifted first. Are you saying that your Dad did not work in agriculture? And hasn't done so for the last 10 years of occupation? If so, he needs to provide a sworn declaration to this effect. Best to use a local plannning agent to help with this - find a few that market agricultural properties locally and then ring around for some estimates.

    Planning permission for what, exactly? Even with the tie lifted, I guess this property is in a rural area and development tends to be more strictly controlled. You need to look at the local development plan to see what is generally allowed. The planning agent you use to lift the tie should be able to advise.

    Personally, I would deal with the tie first and not waste money on a PP application until the tie is resolved.
    Warning ..... I'm a peri-menopausal axe-wielding maniac
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim's to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

3,997Posts Today

7,339Users online

Martin's Twitter