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  • FIRST POST
    • fishybusiness
    • By fishybusiness 27th Apr 12, 7:18 PM
    • 1,075Posts
    • 658Thanks
    fishybusiness
    Infrared Heating Panels....Again!
    • #1
    • 27th Apr 12, 7:18 PM
    Infrared Heating Panels....Again! 27th Apr 12 at 7:18 PM
    I've read other threads on the forum regarding the cost effectiveness of these panels. The general view seems to be that they are no better or worse than other electric heaters.

    I'm interested myself as we live in a house with rubbishy 3kw Dimplex convector heaters, and have thought about replacing them.

    I know the argument of 100% efficiency for electric heaters, but I think for infrared there is more to it. For example, convectors and radiant heaters heat air and objects, infrared heats objects, the claimed efficiency seems to be due to infrared not heating air mass that is moving or lost from the house.

    There is a good report that explains in more detail the theory, anyone interested could Google "LITERATURE STUDY ON RADIANT HEATING IN A THERMALLY- COMFORTABLE INDOOR ENVIRONMENT" by Maria Nila Alban
Page 5
    • CashStrapped
    • By CashStrapped 17th Oct 16, 2:30 PM
    • 1,083 Posts
    • 599 Thanks
    CashStrapped
    Any space that large will probably cost a lot of money to heat.

    As others have pointed out, you either heat the people using focused radiant heaters, or the space using convection heaters. Although the former will leave large areas of the building feeling rather cold.

    Large powerful storage heaters may be a possible choice, but I assume it is all metered from the main house. So without it's own E7 supply this could be difficult.

    I would say it is more about getting the correct sized heaters for the property.

    I do not see why the "best buys" are all made in USA. Are you sure you do not mean, the ones with the best marketing budget?

    As many of the regulars point-out.....regularly....all electric heating is 100% efficient. It just depends on the power output of each heater that determines how powerful they are.

    Check out the large range on a website such as this....

    https://www.heatershop.co.uk/

    It should give examples of all the types you should want or need to consider. Look around for deals elsewhere as you may find them cheaper.

    ------

    You may want to get an epc certificate for the space. That should enable you to calculate the correct sized heaters for the space.

    Furthermore, if the calculations show that electric heating such a large space will be hugely expensive. It may be much cheaper in the long term to consider central (gas) heating.

    So in conclusion, I think you need more specific calculations made based on the size, level of insulation and heating (power output) required to keep the space warm. From there you can do the maths and work out the short and long term costs or each heating solution. then pick the cheapest.
    Last edited by CashStrapped; 17-10-2016 at 2:36 PM.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 17th Oct 16, 3:51 PM
    • 26,538 Posts
    • 12,775 Thanks
    Cardew
    Hi, I'm new to the site. Not sure if this is still a live thread, but if so would appreciate any thoughts on my conundrum. We have a barn, approx 90 mtrs2 and a vaulted ceiling 4mtrs at its highest point. We've used it as a 'second home' mainly in the summer, but are now going to try to set it up as a holiday let. It has a woodburner (12kw) and a number of oil filled rads. This is OK for part of the year but not sufficient for cooler times. So will keep the woodburner and ditch the rads. But replace with what?

    My current thoughts are radiant heat rather than convection. Maybe an infrared in the shower room?

    But dont know how to heat the main room so guests are happy. Ceiling is now insulated and clad (rock wool). Two end gables are not outside walls. But the other two are outside walls and non insulated stud partition. We have gas in the main house but i'm guessing it would be very expensive to extend it? Considering radiant heaters, but best buys appear to be only in the states. Also considering IR rads, or maybe a mix of all?
    Originally posted by Spinneyman
    As said above, to heat such a building will electricity will be very expensive and there is no cheap solution.

    You might consider an air to air heat pump.
    • Bristol Builder
    • By Bristol Builder 27th Nov 16, 10:33 AM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Bristol Builder
    Hi,
    About me:
    I’m a carpenter and ex site manager, interested in everything construction related.
    My house is an 180 year old stone cottage in Northumberland, specification below:
    Open plan kitchen/diner with open staircase leading up to lounge, which is also open to the staircase (theres no stud walls to separate any of these rooms or stairs).
    Has a single bedroom, in an extension.
    Has a bathroom downstairs off the dining area.
    Ceiling height downstairs of 2.3m
    Vaulted ceiling height of 4m to the apex upstairs.
    Super insulated - Walls are 0.13W/m Roof is 0.08W/m
    I will have whole house MVHR, bedroom excluded as we both like this room cool at night
    I have cold air ducts from both ground floor FFL and 1st floor FFL to Apex, these are to draw cold air from the lower levels and mix it with warm air at the highest point of the building.
    I will have a 100% ducted air stove boiler. Water 9Kw and 1.8kw to room
    A 460L thermal store topped up with E7 as and when
    Solar thermal panels
    a buffer tank in the garden to cope with the stove running on cold weekends or hot summer days, size not yet selected. This will allow me to oversize the solar thermal panels a little.
    NO GAS connection
    NO Oil



    I'm happy to have a range of heating systems
    Currently thinking about having a large storage heater on the ground floor to keep the house at say 15 deg.
    Ir heater in the bathroom and kitchen for the mornings whilst we are getting ready for work.
    Wet RADs feed from the thermal store in the evenings, this could be be charged/heated from either E7, Solar thermal or the stove.

    I am also considering Ir panels in the lounge, but I think the industry are using them completely wrong. They seem to suggest that we should use them with thermostats and try and heat the room. This is barmy! Might as well have a cheap convection heater, which will heat the air. When air is heated doesn't everything more or less absorb heat from air. So the furniture will get heated as will my plasterboard, oak flooring and so. Heating a room to 20 degrees with Ir seems crazy. Heating element type seems un-important if your aim is to heat everything in a room to 20 deg. All electric is more or less 100% efficient as people here have already stated. So if the aim is the same all electric types of heater should be equal, right? Also the surface temp of Ir heaters means they will cause the same convection dynamics as a radiator. Ok, slightly reduced due to the flat non fluted shape.

    My reason for wanting Ir heaters is because traditional heating will warm my lounge when i might not want it heated. Also in the lounge we are thinking about having one as my wife likes it alot hotter than i do. Currently I have to strip down to boxers when I my wifes thinking about taking off here 2nd jumper.

    I think keeping the house at 15ish via whatever means necessary and then topping up with stove Ir or wet rads when the need appears seems like a good way forward. Some evenings we wont go upstairs to the lounge until fairly late as we will be in the kitchen drinking lots of wine whilst cooking, then sitting down for dinner.

    Also people seem to think that using wet rads on electric heated water is crazy. I don’t get this. If I use storage heaters and I charge them with lets say 20Kw, even the most efficient thermostatically controlled ones will only store 10Kw over a 24 hour period on the odd hot day. So a loss of 10Kw and a room hotter than I might want it. If I use my thermal store and only charge it with E7, then use that to run wet rads I would have to pay for the circulation pump at peak rates. Modern ones run on as low as 3-10watts so that’s negligible. The heat loss of my thermal store is about 2Kw, so by using my thermal store on spike hot days I could save 8Kw. British weather has quite a few of these. On cold days this system would cost the same as storage heaters plus the 3-10watts per hour for the pump. The reason for me having any storage heaters is that my thermal store is not large enough to cope with all the heating. But it should be ok for topping up the 5 degrees when needed.

    So my reason for posting is I want Ir heaters as I say above to heat me for an hour or two, not to bring a room up to temperature. I think they should all be really low outputs, but run constantly whilst I’m in the room. Here lies my problem, I want Ir heaters with an adjustable output and I cant find any light weight ones for ceiling mounting. All the calculations by manufacturers are based on the idea of heating items and then air by items and a thermostat switching them on and off. I want to be able to adjust the output so I can tailor it to my wifes requirements. It seems amazing that I can heat her chair and not mine in the lounge.

    I posted everything I could think of regarding my house so you could all poke holes in my system, prior to me finishing it. This way if you have valid points I will adjust my house.
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 27th Nov 16, 4:50 PM
    • 6,287 Posts
    • 4,734 Thanks
    Richie-from-the-Boro
    It seems amazing that I can heat her chair and not mine in the lounge
    Not to me, I've long advocated ceiling [expensive & impractical in a domestic setting] and the fact that the individual human 'target / product' [emissivity] absorbs most middle / far-infra. You have only to go back to the 60's and 70's when we had no bathrooms or central heating, we knocked down the old 'lean-to's' on the back of the house and built proper brick bathrooms. Still no commonplace CH, so we installed the old ceiling light & red element 700+ watts heat it quickly warmed the kids, towels and even the 'cast' bath under the arc, but left other areas of the room cold.

    You can buy all manner of effective far-infra ceiling panels of variable physical size and wattage from very black to ceiling white. I've still got a black ceramic 3x3' remote control panel I bought in the early 80's, its done a lot of hours over the years and is still good. Of course the lazy-bonus of sitting on your arras to switch up down etc without getting out of your chair was a cathedral size bonus, or just set 'stat' and timer and let it do its pre-set thing.
    Last edited by Richie-from-the-Boro; 28-11-2016 at 3:13 PM.
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 27th Nov 16, 8:41 PM
    • 6,287 Posts
    • 4,734 Thanks
    Richie-from-the-Boro
    Night store heating & E7.

    20Kw, even the most efficient thermostatically controlled ones will only store 10Kw over a 24 hour period on the odd hot day.
    A brick is a brick :

    - each brick will hold 1.48kWh of cheap heat and depending on insulation will release it over the next 17 hours
    - each of the (up to 4) vertical 850W elements sits in the gap between 4 of these bricks
    - each brick is 230x190x50 - if you divide the total amount of heat you want by 1.48 you know how much stored heat you need
    - a NSH tin comes in 4 varieties up to a 16 bricker 16 x 1.48kW = 23.8kWh of stored heat
    - equivalent to a 1.4kW heater permanently supplying 'cheap electrical background heat' 24 not 17 hours per day

    If its out of heat by say 5 / 8. / 10/ pm then its because you have under specified the tin storage needs and need more bricks or you have the damper open in which case it is not good radiative but bad convective.

    Placement of a NSH should where aesthetically possible should be direct-line to your wife, the benefit of radiated direct heat is much the same as [felt] IR heat. Your keeping the living area at say 15C is from my point of view medically unsafe and socially unreasonable, assuming you mean while 'you are in' the house - but its your house - if you meant only when your out of the dwelling that's a different issue. Best of luck !
    Last edited by Richie-from-the-Boro; 28-11-2016 at 2:58 PM. Reason: More info
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
    • HVR
    • By HVR 24th Apr 17, 7:02 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    HVR
    Having seen the various arguments on why or why not IR heating is good/efficient/cheap etc. I was surprised that the one o two main deciding factors (in my opinion) has not really been touched.

    My background: DIY.

    I am aware of the arguments of more efficient and cheaper running costs when it comes to IR heating however that was not nearly my main concern. However, when it does come to cost (not taking into account initial setup costs) it does make sense that solar panels could be useful towards offsetting heating from an electrical source, albeit not much. The same cannot be said when it comes to heating with gas (i.e. something that provides me with small amounts of free gas). I have so far only placed IR panels in my kitchen but have already removed several radiators to be replaced with IR panels as I progress through the house. I am planning on eventually only using my boiler for hot water.

    My reasons for making this change are as follows:

    1. Gas CH may cost less than electricity, however, the amount of money time and nuisance that comes with having water pipes running throughout the house far outweighs the potential saving that might be made by using gas. Surely events like burst or leaking pipes (i.e. maintenance) play a role in evaluating or comparing different types of heating. The cost involved in having your boiler serviced, getting leaks repaired, replacing rotten joists and all the possible risks of having water pipes throughout the house not to mention disrupting floors, tiles etc. I have done up a few properties now and one common issue in all cases is damaged floor boards (for gaining access) and general damage due to CH pipe leaks. Yes, a properly done job will have less leaks, but no job will last forever and you will eventually need to lift those boards or be the unfortunate buyer to find a pipe had been leaking slowly for months causing a joist to rot.

    2. Heaters that are mounted to walls (radiators) or placed on the floor (other electric heaters) are always in the way. Radiators in particular can remove a complete wall from the room when it comes to arranging furniture (unless you are happy for one piece of furniture to completely cover the radiator being itself heated to death and wasting the heat it produces).

    3. Not being able to fully control the heat in individual rooms. Yes you can turn a radiator down but later on it is too cold and needs to be turned up, and the pipes to and from this radiator still gets heated up. People prefer different temperatures, especially in bedrooms and at night - getting this right with a flow control on a radiator can take some time.

    Why does an electric ceiling mounted heater work in these instances. And for obvious reasons, an IR panel is the only option if you want to mount it to the ceiling:

    1. It will not leak. If it stops working, it can be replaced without a lot of disruption. Thermostats are mostly wireless so need no extra wiring if it needs to be moved. There is no annual service. No bleeding of radiators, or painting or trying to get the paint brush in behind it or painting the thing itself. Then there is the issue of cold surfaces onto which warm humid air condenses, but I think this is known by most.

    2. Ceiling mounted panels are completely out of the way and are almost unnoticeable on a white ceiling. Children and pets are not at risk of touching hot surfaces. The space once occupied by the radiator is now free wall space.

    3. Individual rooms can each have their own panel with wireless thermostat. Each person can set the actual temp of the room they occupy.

    The cost of a brand new boiler is not cheap and replacing one is certainly not a normal DIY job. The initial costs of IR panels, in my opinion, can be quite high but removing a lot of the issues of CH, as an example, is definitely worth it.

    We spend a lot of time talking about saving money on energy in the form of gas but the maintenance costs of gas should not be overlooked.

    I am I the process of doing up a Victorian property and have already removed several radiators to be replaced by panels. If I pay the same in energy or even slightly more, I will still be left pleased when I enjoy the benefits of out of the way, inexpensive to maintain heating panels. Time is also money and often they rank equally when you are trying to save.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 24th Apr 17, 10:49 PM
    • 26,538 Posts
    • 12,775 Thanks
    Cardew

    Why does an electric ceiling mounted heater work in these instances. And for obvious reasons, an IR panel is the only option if you want to mount it to the ceiling:
    Originally posted by HVR
    Welcome to the forum.

    Why can't any radiant heater be ceiling mounted?

    Your argument above seems to be that electrical heating is better than gas, and you dismiss the cost per kWh advantage of gas on the flimsiest grounds - water pipes etc.

    Even if your arguments for electrical heating were valid, which I personally don't accept, I cannot see the why your emphasis is on IR heating and not other forms of electrical heating.

    Most of the objections to those promoting IR heating is that it is marketed on the false premise that IR is more efficient at producing heat than other electrical heating; and it ain't.

    Secondly the prices for some over-hyped IR panels are eye watering. If someone wants to test 'your' theory they should get a few cheap(costing tens) IR heaters and try them.

    I am I the process of doing up a Victorian property and have already removed several radiators to be replaced by panels. If I pay the same in energy or even slightly more, I will still be left pleased when I enjoy the benefits of out of the way, inexpensive to maintain heating panels.
    You won't pay the same in energy, gas is currently about a quarter of the price of electricity. You seem to accept that fact by intending to keep your gas boiler for hot water.
    Last edited by Cardew; 24-04-2017 at 11:42 PM.
    • lstar337
    • By lstar337 25th Apr 17, 8:56 AM
    • 3,072 Posts
    • 1,618 Thanks
    lstar337
    I have so far only placed IR panels in my kitchen but have already removed several radiators to be replaced with IR panels as I progress through the house. I am planning on eventually only using my boiler for hot water.
    Originally posted by HVR
    Enjoy your new expensive heating system.
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