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  • FIRST POST
    richardc1983
    Air to Air Heat Pumps/Air Con - Full Info & Guide
    • #1
    • 4th Feb 09, 2:03 AM
    Air to Air Heat Pumps/Air Con - Full Info & Guide 4th Feb 09 at 2:03 AM
    With all the posts ongoing here regarding heat pumps etc I have decided to start a new post I have put together with information on reverse cycle air conditioning (heat pumps), where people can ask questions, chat about heat pumps, discuss experiences, installs, electricity usage & anything else heat pumps related.
    Theres a lot of info here to take in, please do read it all as this may just


    How does it work?

    It's actually quite simple. Air conditioners work in much the same way as your refrigerator except there are two separate, but integral, parts to the system. There is an outside unit housing the compressor that is similar to the exterior back of your fridge. It draws warmth from the outside air in even the coldest of weather. That warmth is then transferred inside the home using a refrigerant process through a piping system powered by an indoor fan unit that is typically mounted to the wall. This is why the system is also often referred to as a heat pump rather then air conditioning. Both are in fact the same. Similarly, in summer, the reverse happens. Warm air is drawn from the interior room and expelled by the outside unit.

    Heat Pumps are capable of transferring up to 4kW of heat into a space while only consuming 1kW of electrical energy. The energy efficiency of a heat pump will decreases as the temperature difference between inside and outside becomes greater, even at low temperatures a heat pump can provide 3 times as much heat as a normal electric space heater would provide with the same amount of electricity input. This makes Heat pumps extremely energy efficient.

    "Not all Heat Pumps are designed to continue working where temperatures fall below freezing point"

    The principle of air conditioning always comes down to the same:

    absorb energy in one place and release it in another place

    The process requires an indoor unit, an outdoor unit and copper piping to connect both. Through the piping the refrigerant flows from one unit to another. It is the refrigerant that absorbs the energy in one unit and releases it in the other.
    Cooling mode (Heating mode is the same but in reverse)

    1 Indoor unit
    A fan blows the hot indoor air over a heat exchanging coil through which cold refrigerant flows. The cold refrigerant absorbs the heat from the air and cooled air is blown into the room.
    2 Copper piping
    The refrigerant circulates through the units and the piping and takes the heat from the indoor unit to the outdoor unit.
    3 Outdoor unit
    Through compression, the refrigerant gas is heated and its boiling point increases. In the outdoor unit the obtained heat throught compression is released to the outdoor air by means of a fan which blows the outdoor air over a heat exchanging coil.
    4 Refrigerant
    The liquid refrigerant flows back to the indoor unit.
    5 Indoor unit
    Back in the indoor unit, the refrigerant is decompressed and thus enabled to extract heat form the indoor air.



    Comparison of 2400w fan heater & Heat Pump Running Costs:

    http://www.bdt.co.nz/comfortmaster/data/guides/WinterRunningCostsComparison.pdf - this is for Mitsubishi Electric but savings made on other manufacters however these will vary.

    Inverter Technology:

    Here's some info about inverters, the same applies across all manufacturers however efficiency levels are different but the operation side of things is the same. There is an article at the bottom from Mitsubishi Electric where they have done a comparison test for a fan heater and heat pump. This is not unique to Mitsubishi Electric, similar costs will be seen across all heat pumps... its a very efficient technology. Different manufacturers will have different efficiencies. The best manufacturers are Mitsubishi Electric, Daikin, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Fujitsu, Sanyo, LG, any other manufactures are entry level and will not offer as good quality systems or efficiencies.

    Inverter systems save energy by using a variable controlled Compressor. The output is controlled to only provide the energy required to keep the room to the set temperature. By reducing the output required less power is used and this substantially reduces power consumption. Inverter control not only saves you money but also keeps you more comfortable.


    Inverter System or Fixed Speed System?

    What is a Fixed Speed Split System?

    This system only has a single speed compressor motor that is either on or off.

    It works similar to a fan heater that switches off when the desired temperature is reached and on again when the temperature drops to a set level. It speeds up or slows down to calculate the heat loss from the space to be heated ensuring it is only putting in the same amount of heat that the space is losing.

    What does Inverter Mean?

    Inverter technology uses a variable speed compressor motor similar to a car. It simply slows down and speeds up as needed to hold a selected comfort setting.

    Inverter technology provides a more precise room temperature without the temperature fluctuations of fixed speed systems.

    Inverter vs Fixed Speed:

    Inverter Systems are Approximately 30% more efficient than fixed speed systems.

    Inverter systems reach desired room temperature quicker.

    The speed control of the outdoor unit also means quieter operation, this is important especially at night in residential areas.









    Inverter Systems
    • Increased output to achieve set temperature faster.
    • Then varies the output to maintain a constant room temperature.








    Fixed Speed Type
    • Slowly gets to temperature as output rating is fixed.
    • Then turns on and off to maintain room temperature.
    Sizing of units:

    Read the following guide for sizing info: Excuse the references to Australia and New Zealand this contains useful info:

    http://www.bdt.co.nz/comfortmaster/data/guides/heatpump_sizing_quideline.pdf


    What type of unit is best suited for your property:

    Heat Pumps / Air Conditioners are manufactured with various indoor unit options. High Wall Type, Ceiling Cassette Type, Floor Mounted Type, Concealed Ducted Type, and Under Ceiling Type.


    High Wall-mounted

    The most popular residential unit choice. These units tend to be the quietest as well as taking up no floor space.

    Compact Floor Console

    The floor mounted are more designed for heating applications. They are ideal for space heater or gas fire/fireplace replacement. They can be recess mounted into the wall cavity giving a shallow profile for hallway installation.

    Ceiling Cassette

    The ceiling mounted units take up no floor space. These units have four way air direction and have adjustable air flow patterns. These units are more suited to larger floor areas & commercial properties.

    Ceiling Concealed (Ducted)

    These units are mounted in the ceiling space and are unseen in the conditioned space. The only visible presence is the supply and return air grilles.

    Ceiling Suspended

    These units are more suited to high stud large room areas. They tend to have high airflows and are more suited to commercial applications.

    Multi-Split Systems








    Multiple Indoor Units can be Connected to a Single Outdoor
    • Connect from 2 to 8 Indoor Units
    • Many Combination Patterns to choose
    • Energy Saving and Quiet Operation
    • Five Multi-Split Systems from 6.4kW to 16.0kW (Heating)
    Inverter Multi-Split system models are designed to allow several indoor units (regardless of capacity or type) to be connected to a single outdoor unit. This allows you to select the model best suited to each and every room in your property.


    Example: 3x Bedrooms and 1x Office

    ~


    Location of units:

    Indoors:

    Don’t locate units with obstructions in front.

    Result:


    Short cycling of air back to units room sensor making the unit think its wamer/cooler than it actually is.
    Air is not circulated correctly leaving cold/hot areas in room.

    Try to locate the indoor unit where the airflow is pointing to the other areas of the house that may require residual heating/cooling.

    Outdoors:

    Avoid paved areas unless a drain kit is fitted. Result: Units condensate and drip water. May cause slime build up or ice. If no other place please advise customer.

    Noise:
    Outdoor inverter units are very quiet and have scroll compressors, watch the following video and you will see mine in action:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mUzYHEfQEY


    Defrost Cycles & Correct Sizing of Outdoor Unit:
    Defrost will happen in all climates, however the lower the humidity the less frequent it will defrost as it takes longer for it to build up on the outdoor coil.

    You will probably not even notice it defrosting, if you buy a decent brand system you will find that the defrost strategy is very good so that it doesn’t take long to defrost.

    When they defrost you will find that the system goes into reverse, taking heat from the inside circuit to the outdoor unit so it defrosts. This will last about 5 minutes depending on how much ice has built up but you have to look at the unit to notice it doing it as it doesn’t start making things cold inside. The unit just doesn’t heat during that time.

    Some units in New Zealand or other countries that have very cold winters have units optimised for that country, i.e. defrost cycles instead of stopping and going into reverse will inject hot gas into the outdoor unit whilst the unit is heating so that it doesn’t actually stop heating. Currently can only find info on Sanyo air to air heat pumps in this country that do this... not sure of a system that does this on a unit that will provide this on hot water but you can see the technology is there. As I say you don’t need it in the UK climate our winters are not as harsh as some countries.

    The best method for new builds is under floor heating, nice even temps throughout, however longer warm up times due to the lower water temperature but if left on during cold weather you will be fine.

    I personally prefer fan coil units as these double up as cooling/ac for the summer and provide very fast warm up times.

    Most air to water outdoor units can be used with fan coil units... you just use a fan coil instead of a water coil in the floor.

    Mounting of unit... must be installed in the open, no enclosure, so no garages, lofts or corners the unit must be in the open air.

    A user in another post:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?p=29040015#post29040015

    He installed it in the loft and it froze the loft in the cold weather and thawed and caused leaks into the house below, this happened twice and after this he decided to mount the unit outside and it performed better as it was effectively turning the loft into a giant fridge/freezer.

    Here’s some more info on heat pumps:



    Defrost Strategy

    When the outside temperature drops below zero all heat pumps must perform a “defrost cycle” to remove ice build up on their outdoor coils.

    Defrost strategy is determined by individual Heat Pump manufacturers. These strategies vary greatly between brands. Older style Heat Pumps initiated defrost by a fixed time or coil temperature. This system was not efficient as it often caused Heat Pumps to defrost too often or effected performance by not defrosting often enough. Defrost cycle is required when the outdoor coil is too cold or covered in ice preventing heat transfer and unit performance.

    All Heat Pumps must defrost. heats pumps utilise a Fuzzy Logic software program, a form of Artificial Intelligence contained in the chip of the outdoor unit and typically lasts between 3 to 5 minutes.

    The program measures and records:

    - Ambient Temperature
    - Outdoor Coil Temperature
    - Accumulated Continuous Heating Running Times
    - Defrost Initiation Time and Termination Times

    The program optimises this data based on history to produce defrost initiation only when absolutely required.

    This is important as Heat Pumps are unable to produce heat when they are in defrost mode. This is extremely important to real performance in low ambient conditions.

    Defrost Cycle Management

    Heat Pumps optimise its defrost cycle once selected in three ways:
    When the outside temperature drops below zero all heat pumps must perform a “defrost cycle” to remove ice build up on their outdoor coils.

    Defrost strategy is determined by individual Heat Pump manufacturers. These strategies vary greatly between brands. Older style Heat Pumps initiated defrost by a fixed time or coil temperature. This system was not efficient as it often caused Heat Pumps to defrost too often or effected performance by not defrosting often enough. Defrost cycle is required when the outdoor coil is too cold or covered in ice preventing heat transfer and unit performance.

    The program measures and records:

    - Ambient Temperature
    - Outdoor Coil Temperature
    - Accumulated Continuous Heating Running Times
    - Defrost Initiation Time and Termination Times

    The program optimises this data based on history to produce defrost initiation only when absolutely required.

    This is important as Heat Pumps are unable to produce heat when they are in defrost mode. This is extremely important to real performance in low ambient conditions.



    1. Compressor Control
    When a Heat Pump is defrosting it is not providing heat to the controlled space. It runs the compressor(inverter drive) at maximum speed during defrost to bring the outdoor coil up to temperature as quickly as possible. This melts any ice formed on the coil fins quickly and minimises defrost time. Minimising defrost time maximises heat output per hour real time.

    2. Dry Coil Defrost Cycle
    Once the outdoor coil is up to temperature and the compressor cycle has completed there is generally water between the outside coil fins. If the outdoor unit were to immediately resume heating the outdoor coil would freeze and prevent heat exchange. To prevent this the outdoor fan is run at maximum speed prior to resumption of the heating cycle. This is often characterized by steam blowing from the outdoor unit. This ensures the coil is completely dry before the heating cycle resumes.

    3. Time optimization through Fuzzy Logic
    Time between defrost cycles is continually being reviewed and optimized by the Heat Pump microprocessor software. Algorithmic calculations based on previous history is used to calculate the next defrost period.

    Fuzzy Logic or learning logic is a form of artificial intelligence. Defrost cycle termination is based on a combination of time and temperature. These parameters are used to calculate the next defrost period.

    Outdoor Humidity
    Outdoor humidity also effects heating performance. Areas that have a “dry cold” or low humidity such as “Mount Cook” will perform better at low ambient than say Taupo where ambient conditions can reach zero and “misty” moisture laden air conditions exists. The more moisture in the air the more moisture will freeze on the outdoor coil.

    Incorrect Unit Selection
    If a unit is selected that is too small the Heat Pump will run continuously and never reach set point. This continuous running will increase defrost requirements by reducing the outdoor coil running temperature and driving it into sub zero temperatures for excessive periods. The unit will defrost at the minimum intervals and may never catch up and achieve set point.

    Location of Outdoor Unit
    Location of the outdoor unit is essential for low ambient performance. Units located under houses, decking and in areas where airflow is impeded may create their own microclimate (i.e. giant fridge/freezer or in summer oven) and reduce the effective outdoor ambient temperature that the units operates in. Locating the outdoor unit too close to a wall and not observing clearances will also prevent the unit from delivering full output.


    Get the correct sized unit:
    Choosing the right sized Heat Pump is key to ensuring optimum comfort levels. Every home is as individual as its owner. The key to selecting the right Heat Pump for heating your home is choosing the correct unit size. Choosing the wrong size can cost you more in power consumption.


    Insulation and building orientation are key aspects in terms of potential heat loss a home is effected by. An older style home with poor insulation will lose indoor heat much quicker than a modern well insulated home that faces north.
    The quicker a home loses its heat, the bigger the Heat Pump system will need to overcome this heat loss.
    Last edited by richardc1983; 03-01-2011 at 4:00 PM.
Page 55
  • TiredGeek
    They've even fitted the condensate tray! Nice
    A pair of 14kw Ecodans & 39 radiators in a big old farm house in the frozen north
  • jeepjunkie
    Great to see the pics.

    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7521506/PA190118.jpg
  • nande2000
    Doh ! The lockshield valve was shut on the rad I had problems with; house now piping hot everywhere. All we need now is some really cold weather to test the system to its limit.
  • TiredGeek
    Doh ! The lockshield valve was shut on the rad I had problems with; house now piping hot everywhere. All we need now is some really cold weather to test the system to its limit.
    Originally posted by nande2000
    Well that's a relief
    Glad it was something so simple...
    A pair of 14kw Ecodans & 39 radiators in a big old farm house in the frozen north
  • nande2000
    Interestingly the guy that installed mine was telling me he installed an Ecodan 8.5kw for his own house, then upgraded his insulation and downsized to the 5kw model. It heated his house fine but the electric consumption went up by 50%, so hes putting his 8.5 back in.
  • jeepjunkie
    As you can see from the pics below the ASHP going through a defrost. Not that you'd notice it inside as house very warm. Tis a bit chilly here with snow on the ground.

    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7521506/PC050686.JPG

    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7521506/PC050687.JPG
    Last edited by jeepjunkie; 05-12-2012 at 2:32 PM.
  • John_Pierpoint
    Originally posted by jeepjunkie
    I am a bit confused about the relationship between this photo and these

  • albyota
    I am a bit confused about the relationship between this photo and these
    Originally posted by John_Pierpoint
    John_Pierpoint, The first phot just shows the 14kW Ecodan looking at the front of the unit, The other two photos show the frosting occurring on the rear of the coil (two angles) and by the look of it, at night.

    JJ will confirm

    Al
    There are three types of people in this world...those that can count ...and those that can't!

    * The Bitterness of Low Quality is Long Remembered after the Sweetness of Low Price is Forgotten!
  • Diallingtone
    Hi all - I've joined MSE just so I can participate in this thread! I had an Ecodan installed back in August; an 8.5KW unit for my 3 bed house.

    I was nervous - not least because of the heated debates elsewhere in these forums about ASHP efficiencies and associated horror stories. Reading all those posts from Cardew about how it was all doomed to failure

    Anyway, I think my Ecodan is..... FANTASTIC!

    Hot water has never been hotter - we are boosting via immersion much less, maybe 3 times in 6 months versus a few times per week before. Inside temp is absolutely fine, even when we've got down to -5º outside.

    I've checked with the neighbours and they don't hear it - which was a concern - but to be honest it's less noisy than my rattly old LPG boiler. If you walk down our street at night, you can hear the heating going in most houses - mostly boilers venting outside. The Ecodan makes a different kind of noise, but in truth it's not any more intrusive.

    The defrost cycle is amazing. Last night, I was looking at the unit and it's all frozen up - looks like the inside of a fridge. Then the unit makes a noise a bit like a lorry's air-brakes and, after a few moments, the ice turns clear and starts to run off as water into the soakaway.

    I explain to people that it works by combining electricity with some clever gubbins and a pinch of pixie dust - no other rational explanation

    ASHPs aren't perfect. Because the rads don't get as hot, it does take longer to get a house up to temperature - so we have the heating on all the time and keep it in a fairly narrow range; 16º overnight, 19º during the day and 21º at night. In my experience, it can take an hour to raise the temp by 1º - not a problem per se, you just have to plan a bit better.

    I still can't comment on running costs. Back in August we were nearly £300 in credit with SSE and probably over paying by £20-30 per month. It will take a while to burn through that and assess increased payments. With Solar PV and Solar Thermal and no separate usage meter for the ASHP, I have no way of tracking what it uses with any confidence. No matter. I'm sure it's cheaper than LPG and every time I see that my LPG tank has gone, I still smile!

    When the RHI payments kick in next year, I will hopefully get some dosh which will speed up the return on investment and be the proverbial cherry on the cake.

    So far so good. Although I don't like the cold weather, I am secretly wanting the temperature to drop even further so I can see how well it works. Rated down to -15º, I think the coldest we've recorded round here is around -11º, so it should be interesting.
  • jeepjunkie
    Hi all - I've joined MSE just so I can participate in this thread! I had an Ecodan installed back in August; an 8.5KW unit for my 3 bed house.

    I was nervous - not least because of the heated debates elsewhere in these forums about ASHP efficiencies and associated horror stories. Reading all those posts from Cardew about how it was all doomed to failure

    Anyway, I think my Ecodan is..... FANTASTIC!

    Hot water has never been hotter - we are boosting via immersion much less, maybe 3 times in 6 months versus a few times per week before. Inside temp is absolutely fine, even when we've got down to -5º outside.

    I've checked with the neighbours and they don't hear it - which was a concern - but to be honest it's less noisy than my rattly old LPG boiler. If you walk down our street at night, you can hear the heating going in most houses - mostly boilers venting outside. The Ecodan makes a different kind of noise, but in truth it's not any more intrusive.

    The defrost cycle is amazing. Last night, I was looking at the unit and it's all frozen up - looks like the inside of a fridge. Then the unit makes a noise a bit like a lorry's air-brakes and, after a few moments, the ice turns clear and starts to run off as water into the soakaway.

    I explain to people that it works by combining electricity with some clever gubbins and a pinch of pixie dust - no other rational explanation

    ASHPs aren't perfect. Because the rads don't get as hot, it does take longer to get a house up to temperature - so we have the heating on all the time and keep it in a fairly narrow range; 16º overnight, 19º during the day and 21º at night. In my experience, it can take an hour to raise the temp by 1º - not a problem per se, you just have to plan a bit better.

    I still can't comment on running costs. Back in August we were nearly £300 in credit with SSE and probably over paying by £20-30 per month. It will take a while to burn through that and assess increased payments. With Solar PV and Solar Thermal and no separate usage meter for the ASHP, I have no way of tracking what it uses with any confidence. No matter. I'm sure it's cheaper than LPG and every time I see that my LPG tank has gone, I still smile!

    When the RHI payments kick in next year, I will hopefully get some dosh which will speed up the return on investment and be the proverbial cherry on the cake.

    So far so good. Although I don't like the cold weather, I am secretly wanting the temperature to drop even further so I can see how well it works. Rated down to -15º, I think the coldest we've recorded round here is around -11º, so it should be interesting.
    Originally posted by Diallingtone
    Great to hear another success story.

    I suppose if it were not for blokes like Cardew we not do as much research as we do prior to install.

    Cheers
  • Cardew

    I was nervous - not least because of the heated debates elsewhere in these forums about ASHP efficiencies and associated horror stories. Reading all those posts from Cardew about how it was all doomed to failure

    Anyway, I think my Ecodan is..... FANTASTIC!
    Originally posted by Diallingtone
    Welcome to the forum.

    I appreciate that your comment is 'tongue in cheek', but there shouldn't have to be any horror stories when people pay??(£10,000+?) for a system.

    It is quite obvious that ASHPs can work well, but all too often they don't, as the horror stories on MSE(with ripped out ASHPs) and elsewhere on the web illustrate - not to mention the Energy Saving Trust 12 month trial which was IMO little short of a disaster - and no follow up report to show things have improved.

    I believe that the manufacturer should take responsibility their systems and not pass the buck to the installers. If your house was unsuitable for an ASHP because of insulation deficiencies, I wonder how many installation firms would have told you and lost the opportunity to do business.

    There is one other very important point, that is an inherent disadvantage of ASHPs, that you mention in your post:

    ASHPs aren't perfect. Because the rads don't get as hot, it does take longer to
    get a house up to temperature - so we have the heating on all the time and keep
    it in a fairly narrow range; 16º overnight, 19º during the day and 21º at night.
    In my experience, it can take an hour to raise the temp by 1º - not a problem
    per se, you just have to plan a bit better.
    For an ASHP to be effective you have to run it like you do - i.e. running 24/7. That is a big disadvantage, particularly for people out at work all day. Someone who is at work, say from 8am to 6pm is having electricity consumed and heat produced for an empty house - wasted enrgy and costs. With conventional CH it is sufficient to have it timed to come on, say, 30 mins before returning to the house.

    Many prospective customers are unaware of the above and I have never seen this issue given publicity.

    Anyway it looks like you have got a good system! Let us hope the running costs are low.

    P.S.
    Do you mind saying how much your system cost - and did you have to get new/extra radiators?
  • Diallingtone
    So, my installation consisted of:
    8.5KW Ecodan
    New 200L water tank (at my request) - up from 140L
    4 new rads; 2 in lounge, 1 in kitchen, 1 in main bedrooom
    Plus, 1 rad moved from lounge to bedroom 2
    New thermostatic valves on all rads
    decommissioning of old boiler & make good

    Total cost: £7,500 (net of grants - £850 from DECC and £400 from Mitsubishi)

    I was paying £125 per month to Calor for LPG - just for heating, hot water was done by immersion heater. My installer estimates annual running costs for heating and hot water to be £550 (based on the heat loss estimate), so if that's true, a big annual saving on the £1500+ I was paying before. Only time will tell. On that basis, payback of around 7 years at current prices, albeit the RHI payments next year should make that much more attractive, hopefully payback in less than 5 years.

    My lounge has a vaulted ceiling which takes longer to heat - the 1º per hour may vary by property type, but it is evident the rads don't get as hot - max temp would be 50º versus 70-80º (I would guess) for gas.

    If the heating is on all day, the impact is relevant only to total resources consumed, i.e. if it's still cheaper to have ASHP on all day versus timed oil/gas, I guess that's a good outcome. ASHP have lower CO2 output, plus (and I like this spin off) it takes heat from the air, so in its own way it fights global warming

    Early days, but I'm pleased to be free from LPG, especially since I offset the electric with solar PV and will do more as and when new opportunities (Ridgeblade?) come along.
  • zeupater
    ....., plus (and I like this spin off) it takes heat from the air, so in its own way it fights global warming .....
    Originally posted by Diallingtone
    .... Apart from the issue that the heat that has been pumped inside leaks back out through the walls, windows, roof etc ....

    ... funny, but I've heard that particular argument used before, it's a bit like saying that leaving the freezer door open in the summer cools the kitchen ....

    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
  • Cardew

    My lounge has a vaulted ceiling which takes longer to heat - the 1º per hour may vary by property type, but it is evident the rads don't get as hot - max temp would be 50º versus 70-80º (I would guess) for gas.

    If the heating is on all day, the impact is relevant only to total resources consumed, i.e. if it's still cheaper to have ASHP on all day versus timed oil/gas, I guess that's a good outcome. ASHP have lower CO2 output, plus (and I like this spin off) it takes heat from the air, so in its own way it fights global warming

    Early days, but I'm pleased to be free from LPG, especially since I offset the electric with solar PV and will do more as and when new opportunities (Ridgeblade?) come along.
    Originally posted by Diallingtone
    Thank you.
    The maximum CH water temperature for most gas boilers is 82C I believe.

    Whilst the maximum temp of CH water(not HW) from your ASHP is 50C, surely you wouldn't normally run it at that temperature?
  • grahamc2003
    .... Apart from the issue that the heat that has been pumped inside leaks back out through the walls, windows, roof etc ....

    ... funny, but I've heard that particular argument used before, it's a bit like saying that leaving the freezer door open in the summer cools the kitchen ....

    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    Sort of.

    But the heatpump gives say 100kwh of heat inside for about 35kWh of electricity, whereas a gas boiler gives 100kWh of heat inside by burning about 110kWh of gas.

    Yes, the heat sucked from the outside leaks back outside along with an extra dollop amounting to about 1/3rd, but with alternative heating, an extra whole dollop is leaked to the outside.

    Or put yet another way, the atmosphere is heated by 110kwh for each 100kwh of home heating by gas, whereas for a heat pump, the atmosphere is only heated by 35kwh.

    (Not that I think that matters).
    Last edited by grahamc2003; 07-12-2012 at 6:57 PM.
  • grahamc2003

    The defrost cycle is amazing. Last night, I was looking at the unit and it's all frozen up - looks like the inside of a fridge. Then the unit makes a noise a bit like a lorry's air-brakes and, after a few moments, the ice turns clear and starts to run off as water into the soakaway.

    I:
    Originally posted by Diallingtone
    Good to hear owner's views on these.

    Yours seems very cheap compared to my quotes (about £12k/£13k for a 14kW, including new wet system). Wouldn't mind a quote from your installers, if you would care to divulge (either on the board or by pm).

    Shame you didn't have any meters fitted. Although the defrost obviously works fine, I'd also like to know the cost of a defrost, and how often it occured at various temperatures. Not sure if Mitsi offer such metering, or whether it's available from third parties (or whether to make do with an inaccurate Owl).

    Very useful info regarding noise etc, thanks.
  • nande2000
    Must admit Im amazed at how good my Ecodan is at heating HW (i was bracing myself for the wife moaning about washing the dishes cold) - It is miles better than the oil range cooker/boiler it replaced.
    The water temp gets up to 60 degc in a 210 litre tank in the same time it took the oil range to heat a 120l tank.

    Personally I think heat pumps would work for any property (within reason), just the installer has to plan the extra rads and insulation for you. With fossil fuel boilers bad installers could cover their tracks by oversizing.

    Got mine (8.5kw Ecodan + 210litre vented thermal store plus one new 1800mm wide rad) installed for £7200 inc vat and I havent had my RHPP yet. Its not that far off what a new external oil boiler would have cost me (inc cost of a new tank)

    When you buy a new heating system of any sort you need to assume that most installers have no clue in what they are doing..In my limited experience about 60% are charlatans.


    Thank you.
    The maximum CH water temperature for most gas boilers is 82C I believe.

    Whilst the maximum temp of CH water(not HW) from your ASHP is 50C, surely you wouldn't normally run it at that temperature?
    Originally posted by Cardew
    Last edited by nande2000; 07-12-2012 at 7:22 PM. Reason: extra info
  • lovesgshp
    Thank you.
    The maximum CH water temperature for most gas boilers is 82C I believe.

    Whilst the maximum temp of CH water(not HW) from your ASHP is 50C, surely you wouldn't normally run it at that temperature?
    Originally posted by Cardew
    We have systems working on the 50C rad output temperature and the clients say that the temperature in the room is more stable and comfortable, as constant against when they had gas.
  • Mister G
    Sort of.

    But the heatpump gives say 100kwh of heat inside for about 35kWh of electricity, whereas a gas boiler gives 100kWh of heat inside by burning about 110kWh of gas.

    Yes, the heat sucked from the outside leaks back outside along with an extra dollop amounting to about 1/3rd, but with alternative heating, an extra whole dollop is leaked to the outside.

    Or put yet another way, the atmosphere is heated by 110kwh for each 100kwh of home heating by gas, whereas for a heat pump, the atmosphere is only heated by 35kwh.

    (Not that I think that matters).
    Originally posted by grahamc2003
    Ah, but what about the CO2 footprint of the power station that generates that 35kWh?
  • Cardew
    We have systems working on the 50C rad output temperature and the clients say that the temperature in the room is more stable and comfortable, as constant against when they had gas.
    Originally posted by Geotherm
    I can't see why that would be the case when they could have their gas boiler water temperature set to 50%

    My point was that running an ASHP to give a water temperature of 50C gives a lower COP than, say, 35C.This is why heat pumps are so suited to under floor heating.

    It is also a fact that some(not all by any means) people who have paid good money for a product, are less inclined to be objective in their appraisal of that product.. Even on MSE tenants(both council/HOA and private) generally are more critical of heat pumps.

    I speak as someone who bought 2 Betamax VCRs and a Toshiba HD DVD player - convinced that VHS and Blu-ray wouldn't catch on!
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