Bank Harrassing By Phone

beccabooboo · 4 December 2007 at 9:53PM

hi everyone,

I know this may have been posted before, but there is so much on here it would take me an age to find an answer, so I thought I would write!

My hubby and I are in a DMP with CCCS who have been great. 2 of the creditors are Sainsburys Bank and Halifax Bank who are both HBOS, these were credit cards in hubbys name. Last year when we started the plan they both froze interest, but 2 months ago both wrote stating that the freeze was an error and that interest was to be reinstated. I told CCCS and they wrote a letter to each again asking them to freeze the interest.

Halifax rang and spoke to hubby 3 weeks ago, he told them we are on DMP and payments will continue as per the plan and will be reviewed annually and will increase/decrease dependant on income/expendature and circs.

Since then they have rung, on average, twice per day, sometimes more, but the annoying thing is this - THEY HANG UP WITHOUT SPEAKING, I thought at first that I was getting funny phonecalls, but soon sussed out it was them. We have been sooooooooo angry about it, and one day, when they did speak and ask for hubby, I put him on the phone, and guess what......THEY HUNG UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Today they rang yet again, and they did speak, they asked for hubby, I told them that he wasn't here (he was at work) and before I let them go I told the guy that hubby only will respond to written correspondance and that we do not appreciate unsolicited harrassing silent phone calls, the guy was so not bothered. An hour later they rang again, and I said the same thing and they said they still need to talk to him.

I want to write to them, is there a standard letter, a peice of law - harrasment??

It's close to crimbo and I keep getting silent calls, can you imagine if hubby worked away and I was here on my own, I could be really scared.

Any advice appreciated.
Thanks
B!!

AGB863 · 4 December 2007 at 10:15PM

Have default notices been served for both of these accounts?

If they have, you are within your rights to enforce the request to only have written correspondance as the form of contact from HBOS.

This request can be made using the this section from the Debt Collection Guidance as set down by the Office of Fair Trading

Communication

2.1 It is unfair to communicate, in whatever form, with consumers in an unclear,inaccurate or misleading manner.

2.2 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

g. ignoring or disregarding debtors' legitimate wishes in respect
of when and where to contact them, for example, shift workers who

ask not to be telephoned during certain times of the day.

If the default notices have been served for the accounts, you will have to notify HBOS in writing that you want them only to contact you in writing and
if they fail to do this, you will raise a complaint with the OFT and also Trading Standards.

Also from the guidance, you can request that any conact has to come through your appointed representative, ie CCCS and they can not refuse to deal with them

Deceptive and/or unfair methods

2.7 Dealings with debtors are not to be deceitful and/or unfair.

2.8 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

c. refusing to deal with appointed or authorised third parties, such
as Citizens Advice Bureaux, independent advice centres or money

advisers

d. contacting debtors directly and bypassing their appointed representatives

e. operating a policy, without reason, of refusing to negotiate with

debt management companies

I hope this is of help to you

orpheus · 4 December 2007 at 11:53PM

Hi Becca

I can't improve on the sound advice above, advice I followed when I suffered a similar problem. Once I had my 'lightbulb' moment and stopped paying my creditors with credit from other places and defaulted, I was subjected to a barrage of constant calls. HBOS were in there, although for me, MBNA were the worst, they tried a good-cop bad-cop routine with a male and female phoning me on alternate hours every day for two weeks. I got success with faxing (many times) requests for written correspondence only and that they deal with my representative (payplan in my case), threatening to sue them for harrassment and copying the faxes to the OFT and Trading Standards.

Have you told CCCS about this, I am sure thay would help too?

Please remember that you don't have to answer the phone! Friends and family and important callers will leave messages that you can respond to straight away.

Good luck, I know how you feel......

Tootsie_Roll · 5 December 2007 at 10:35AM

AGB863 wrote: »

Have default notices been served for both of these accounts?

If they have, you are within your rights to enforce the request to only have written correspondance as the form of contact from HBOS.

This request can be made using the this section from the Debt Collection Guidance as set down by the Office of Fair Trading
Communication

2.1 It is unfair to communicate, in whatever form, with consumers in an unclear,inaccurate or misleading manner.

2.2 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:
g. ignoring or disregarding debtors' legitimate wishes in respect
of when and where to contact them, for example, shift workers who
ask not to be telephoned during certain times of the day.

If the default notices have been served for the accounts, you will have to notify HBOS in writing that you want them only to contact you in writing and
if they fail to do this, you will raise a complaint with the OFT and also Trading Standards.

Also from the guidance, you can request that any conact has to come through your appointed representative, ie CCCS and they can not refuse to deal with them
Deceptive and/or unfair methods

2.7 Dealings with debtors are not to be deceitful and/or unfair.

2.8 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

c. refusing to deal with appointed or authorised third parties, such
as Citizens Advice Bureaux, independent advice centres or money
advisers
d. contacting debtors directly and bypassing their appointed representatives

e. operating a policy, without reason, of refusing to negotiate with
debt management companies

I hope this is of help to you

I'm surprised that as a debt counsellor you are incorrectly quoting the OFT guidelines.

2.2g is often incorrectly trotted out as a reason to stop creditors from calling but the reality is that there are no guidelines or laws preventing either lender or dca from calling by phone whenever they want to even if you write and request all contact in writing - it is just a request, nothing more. As you can see the guidelines state 'g. ignoring or disregarding debtors' legitimate wishes in respect of when and where to contact them, for example, shift workers who ask not to be telephoned during certain times of the day.' There is no mention of how they contact you and in fact they cannot be prevented from calling you if they choose (of course you can always change your number!). The more appropriate legislation in this regard is protection from harrassment which some of you may know is notoriously difficult to prove because it is entirely subjective. Up until 2 years ago when I left the lender/dca world I had not heard of a single proven case of harrassment against a lender or dca for calling about arrears etc.

Becca

None of this is helping you ! What may be happening is an automated dialler is calling you and hanging up because there is no one free to take your call however that doesn't explain why you are on occasion speaking to someone. Personally in your position I would call them - only speak to someone in authority and explain you are unhappy about the calls and why, review your DMP payment if necessary (unlikely) and ask them to note the arrangement on their system. This, if correctly set up should prevent the dialler from calling you until the arrangement is up for review again. I would then confirm all of this in writing to them and send it recorded delivery to ensure they get it.

nottoolate · 5 December 2007 at 10:45AM

the national debtline advice says

i think they have a SMALL amount of training:rolleyes:

Factsheet | Harassment

Harassment of people in debt by creditors or their agents is a criminal offence under the Administration of Justice Act 1970. It is often difficult to know what to do when you feel a creditor is not dealing with your account fairly. In order for you to identify what activities by your creditors may involve harassment and what can be done about the problem, this fact sheet outlines:
the relevant section of the Administration of Justice Act;

the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) Debt Collection Guidance on harassment;

how to deal with harassment by your creditors.

SECTION 40 OF THE ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE ACT

"S40 Punishment for unlawful harassment of debtors"
"A person commits an offence if, with the object of coercing another person to pay money claimed from the other as a debt under a contract, he:
harasses the other with demands for payment which, in respect of their frequency, or the manner or occasion of making any such demand, or of any threat or publicity by which any demand is accompanied, are calculated to subject him or members of his family or household to alarm, distress or humiliation;

falsely represents, in relation to the money claimed, that criminal proceedings lie for failure to pay it;

falsely represents himself to be authorised in some official capacity to claim or enforce payment; or

utters a document falsely represented by him to have some official character which he knows it has not.

A person may be guilty of an offence by virtue of sub-section (1)(a) above if he concerts with others in the taking of such action as is described in that paragraph, notwithstanding that his own course of conduct does not by itself amount to harassment".

Phone us for advice 0808 808 4000

Office of Fair Trading Debt Collection Guidance

Many activities could count as harassment. It is important to note that 'anything done by a person which is reasonable' when trying to recover a debt, is not considered to be harassment. Both the Office of Fair Trading and trade associations (run by the credit industry) have produced guidance on what activities may be considered harassment and should therefore be avoided by creditors. The following list is taken from the new Debt Collection Guidance for holders of consumer credit licences.
Creditors are warned by the Office of Fair Trading under the Debt Collection Guidance that the following practices are considered unfair.
"It is unfair to communicate, in whatever form, with consumers in an unclear, inaccurate or misleading manner."

This includes:
letters that look like court claims;

not making it clear who the company is or what their role is;

unhelpful legal language;

not giving balance statements about the debt when asked;

contacting you at unreasonable times even when asked not to;

asking you to contact them on premium rate phone numbers.

"Those contacting debtors must not be deceitful by misrepresenting their authority and/or the correct legal position."

This includes:
claiming to work for the court or be a bailiff;

implying action can be taken that is not legally possible such as implying they could take your property;

using a business name or logo that implies they are a government body;

implying that court action has been taken against you when it hasn't;

implying not paying your debt is a criminal offence;

threatening to take court action in England if you live in Scotland or the other way round.

"Putting pressure on debtors or third parties is considered to be oppressive."

This includes:
contacting you too frequently;

pressurising you to sell property or take out more debt;

using more than one collection company at the same time or not telling you when your debt has been passed to another company;

pressuring you to pay in full or in large instalments you cannot afford;

making threatening gestures or statements;

ignoring disputes about whether you owe the money;

trying to embarrass you in public or threatening to tell a third party such as a neighbour or your family about your debts.

"Dealings with debtors are not to be deceitful and/or unfair."

Examples include:
sending letters addressed to 'the occupier' or discussing the debt with someone without knowing if they are you;

refusing to deal with an adviser acting on your behalf;

not accepting reasonable offers or passing on payments you make;

refusing to freeze action if you dispute the debt.

"Charges should not be levied unfairly."

Examples include:
claiming collection costs when the original credit agreement didn't allow this to happen and making you think you are legally liable for the costs;

not putting the specific amounts that can be added for collection costs in the original credit agreement;

adding any unreasonable charges.

"Those visiting debtors must not act in an unclear or threatening manner."

Examples include:
collectors should explain the reason for any visit and give you notice of the time and date they will call;

they should not visit if they know you are ill or vulnerable and if they find you are unwell or distressed they should leave;

they should not come in if you do not want them to and should leave when you ask them to;

they should not visit you at work or somewhere like a hospital.

Phone us for advice 0808 808 4000

HOW TO DEAL WITH HARASSMENT BY YOUR CREDITORS

Contact the creditor
The first step is to write to the creditor and outline your concerns about the company's behaviour. Inform them that you are familiar with the terms of Section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act and ask that the creditor takes steps to avoid similar occurrences in the future. Tell your creditors how you would prefer to be contacted and ask that they confirm their agreement to this. A letter at this stage may avoid the need to take further action against the company.

Tell them you are aware of the OFT Debt Collection Guidance and that you will consider making a complaint about their behaviour under the guidance.

It is worthwhile keeping a diary of telephone calls, letters, visits etc. It is helpful if another person can confirm what happened, for example, when the creditor called at your home.

It is usually difficult to persuade the police to prosecute in cases of harassment unless a more serious offence such as violence, fraud or blackmail is also involved.

Consumer Direct and Trading Standards

If you want to make a complaint you can contact Consumer Direct. They will give you advice over the phone or by email. They can put you in touch with the trading standards department in your local council if you need more detailed or face-to-face advice. Trading standards departments can investigate whether an offence has been committed and whether prosecution is appropriate. The penalty is a fine of up to £5,000 in the magistrates court. Also a conviction is likely to provide evidence that the creditor is no longer a 'fit and proper person' to hold a consumer credit licence.
INFORMATION
See the section 'Useful addresses' at the end of this fact sheet for the Consumer Direct details.

The Financial Ombudsman Service

From April 2007 you can complain to the Financial Ombudsman Service about how a lender or debt collection agency has behaved when dealing with your account. You will have to follow the lender's complaints procedure first.
WARNING
You can only complain about events that happen from April 2007 onwards.
INFORMATION
The address for the Financial Ombudsman Service is in the 'Useful addresses' section.

Office of Fair Trading

If trading standards will not act it may be worth contacting the Office of Fair Trading directly. The OFT does not take up individual complaints but their debt collection enforcement team collects information that can be used to take action against creditors who can lose their consumer credit licence.
INFORMATION
See the section 'Useful addresses' at the end of this fact sheet for details of how to contact the OFT.

Trade associations

The creditor may be a member of a trade association with a code of practice. You could find out if your creditor is a member of a trade association and write to them with your complaint. A code of practice is not legally enforceable but the association may take some action against their members.
INFORMATION
See the section 'Useful addresses' at the end of this fact sheet for details of the main trade associations.
Phone us for advice 0808 808 4000

OTHER OPTIONS

INFORMATION
If you are a BT customer, they have a service called 'choose to refuse' which might help you if you are getting a lot of calls from an unpleasant creditor. You have to key in a PIN number after a call. The caller will get a message refusing them if you don't wish to take their call the next time they ring. The cost of the service is approximately £10 per quarter for a maximum of 10 numbers. Ring BT on Freephone 0800 169 2707 for more details.
ADVICE
If you have a different telephone provider, contact them and ask if they have a similar service.
Another alternative is for you to pursue your own prosecution in the magistrates court. This could involve considerable cost so you need to obtain proper legal advice first.

You could refer to the Malicious Communications Act 1988. This deals with the sending of letters or articles for the purpose of causing 'distress or anxiety'. A person found guilty can be fined in the magistrates court. To prosecute successfully the letter or article sent would have to convey:
a message which is indecent or grossly offensive;

a threat; or

information which is false and known or believed to be false by the sender.

The Criminal Justice Act & Public Order Act 1994 Section (4)(a) makes it a criminal offence to cause 'harassment, alarm or distress' with intent by using 'threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour'. This can only be an offence if it happens in a public place, not in your own home. The police would need to be contacted and prosecute for this offence.

The Protection from Harassment Act 1997 makes it a criminal offence to harass people and put 'people in fear of violence'. The harassment must happen on at least two separate occasions. The police would have to agree to prosecute for this offence. Phone us for advice.

Tootsie_Roll · 5 December 2007 at 11:01AM

nottoolate

All you are doing is quoting the laws and guidelines - I know these well having reviewed and studied them over time. What you need to consider though is that the application of these guidelines and laws is subjective and as I mentioned I have never heard of a single instance where any lender or dca was prosecuted. Now I used to attend many, many industry events over the year and this would have been a hot topic of conversation if anyone had.

Now I have sucessfully prosecuted someone for harrassment. Even with 6 years worth of police files, personal logs etc the Public Prosecutor wanted us to settle out of court because he didn't think we would be sucessful because it is so difficult to prove.

AGB863 · 5 December 2007 at 11:02AM

Tootsie_Roll wrote: »

I'm surprised that as a debt counsellor you are incorrectly quoting the OFT guidelines.

quote]

I have not incorrectly quoted the guidelines - and I can confirm that I have used this part of the guidelines on numerous occasions as a request for contact to be made only in writing and that both lenders and DCA's have confirmed in writing that the request will be adhered to.

nottoolate · 5 December 2007 at 11:07AM

AGB863 wrote: »

I have not incorrectly quoted the guidelines - and I can confirm that I have used this part of the guidelines on numerous occasions as a request for contact to be made only in writing and that both lenders and DCA's have confirmed in writing that the request will be adhered to.

i have used them and letters that use them with two separate dca's as well.

they now correspond only in writing and are being much more reasonable

bathgatebuyer · 5 December 2007 at 11:25AM

There have been one or two well-publicised cases involving the Halifax which I think were settled out of court over harrassment.

I know what it's like. They used to call me a number of times each day (on one day 27 times - hanging up each time), and would ignore any agreement I had with them for payment," So, you're able to make your payment next month..............." and later there would be another one, "I see you've confirmed you can make your agreed payment next month", and then another one later, "I can see you've agreed to make your payment next month..........". They were doing nothing more than phoning me for the sake of phoning me. That, of course, is when they could actually get through because 99% of the time it hung up before I could get there.

From one conversation I had during that horrible, stressful panic-attack-inducing time, one member of Halifax staff said that they used an automated dialler which was programmed to keep trying people at various stages of the day. In theory, it should stop when it eventually got through to someone, but for some reason that doesn't happen.

My solution was to just turn the phone off which served to be quite isolating as I was unemployed at the time and really looked forward to friends ringing me. That was ruined by the unecessary pesterings of the Halifax. Calls were anytime from 8 am until about 9 pm mad as I've said, on one occasion reached 27 in one day from their nasty 0845 number.

You have my sympathies as they are ruthless and uncaring as the recent case involving a cancer victim testifies to.

nottoolate · 5 December 2007 at 11:31AM

bathgatebuyer wrote: »

There have been one or two well-publicised cases involving the Halifax which I think were settled out of court over harrassment.

thanks. i didn't know about that :eek::eek:

just founf it on google

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2525055.ece

this came up as well

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2007/may/23/accounts.saving

A single parent who planned to sue a major high street bank claiming they harassed her about an overdraft has settled out of court, it was confirmed today.
Alison Turner was seeking an injunction against Halifax plc and wanted damages for what she claimed was stress and anxiety caused by them repeatedly contacting her.
The mother-of-two forced the bank to agree to clear £775 off an overdraft bill in January after complaining the charges were unlawful. These were subsequently removed on March 13.
Ms Turner's solicitor, Nash and Co, said on January 23 that the bank had agreed to stop contacting their client, and the solicitor sent a letter saying all correspondence should go through their offices.
But the bank allegedly tried to contact Ms Turner 33 times, by phone and letter, between January 27 and March 13.
Ms Turner said she felt bullied by the calls saying they were "unprofessional and disrespectful". Nash and Co said they were in breach of what Halifax agreed and constituted harassment under the law.
A legal action was launched seeking an injunction, damages and costs. "The constant calling reduced me to tears at times," Ms Turner said, after launching the court action in April.
The case had been due to be heard before a circuit judge in the Exeter county court on Monday.
The details of the settlement have not been released and both Ms Turner and her solicitor have said they cannot comment on the terms.
A Halifax spokesman said: "We did settle before it went to court but in terms of the details, that's between ourselves and Ms Turner."

m.colak · 5 December 2007 at 11:37AM

You could phone you telephone line provider and informed them to block any calls from said number which they can do by law.

Bank Harrassing By Phone

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