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The old moneysaving nappy debate

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I've never used washable nappies but have often though that I would like to try them.

We've had discussions on here and I know that lots of people swear by them, it's never been a concern of mine although I do recycle glass, tins, plastic, paper and composting stuff so it's not that I'm not doing my bit.

Anyway, there's just been a report on the news saying that it ISN'T that moneysaving to wash and dry nappies and that the effects on the environment of power, sterilising solutions, detergent etc is almost the same as using disposables.

So for me with a 16 month old is it worth me getting started with reuseables or should I stick to disposables seeing as she's going to be (hopefully) getting out of nappies in 8 months ish?

They look expensive to start off with, I don't know anyone who has them second hand and I wouldn't be selling them on e-bay after.
Just run, run and keep on running!

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Comments

  • foreverskint
    foreverskint Posts: 1,009 Forumite
    500 Posts
    Hi ,


    I started off with good intentions with this baby, and bought all the kit ( from ebay ) for using washables. For me I found the lack of space I had, to store two buckets of soaking nappies, space and time for drying etc all just too much, and am now about to relist them on ebay. Even bought there it still cost over £70.00 to start off in the first size.
    I find that there are good reliable disposables at a good price available and whilst I know the environmental issues surrounding them, I could not live without them.

    I would have thought that with a 16 month old it would not be worth the expense, mines 22 months and has already started toilet training, Not too succesfully mind, pass me the vinegar and bicarb please:rolleyes:
  • Lillibet_2
    Lillibet_2 Posts: 3,364 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    I obviously haven't used them yet cos Spud isn't due for another couple of months but I have bought mine very cheaply off of ebay and from Boots who have had them in their clearence section in my local branch, a mix of terry squares, shaped terries, wraps & all in ones. All in I've spend less than £50 (less than £40 I think?) & I think I've got enough to see me through to potty training
    The on-going costs will be disposable liners, detergent & washing machine running costs. I don't plan on using sterlising solution for them, just vinegar & tea-tree oil. I haven't actually costed this out but I can't imagine it's going to exceed the estimated £400-700 cost of disposables (depends which brand you use & which report you read I guess!).
    Also so far scientists have not been able to establish how long it takes a disposable nappy to degrade beacuse so far all the ones in landfill from the earliest production HAVEN'T:eek: :eek: :eek: The cost of producing & washing re-usables can't equal this environmental damage, surely? There are, however, environmentally friendly alternative disposable nappies available now, I have got a few free samples (actually quite a few!) which I will try, which may be better but in general I just can't bring myself to repeatedly line Proctor & Gambles pockets buying disposables every week.

    Just my humble 2 pennyworth

    (I reserve the right to completey change my mind once Spud is born & become a Pampers convert if I find washables are just too much to cope with:o )
    Post Natal Depression is the worst part of giving birth:p

    In England we have Mothering Sunday & Father Christmas, Mothers day & Santa Clause are American merchandising tricks:mad: Demonstrate pride in your heirtage by getting it right please people!
  • Loadsabob
    Loadsabob Posts: 662 Forumite
    Jay-Jay wrote:

    Anyway, there's just been a report on the news saying that it ISN'T that moneysaving to wash and dry nappies and that the effects on the environment of power, sterilising solutions, detergent etc is almost the same as using disposables.

    Did the report you heard actually mention moneysaving and economic costs? I've heard that news item so many times since this morning, and have just checked on the BBC website, and the report doesn't go into costs to parents; purely environmental impact.

    I'm sceptical anyway. Sure, washing nappies uses energy and water, so that's an environmental impact, but I don't know how the study finds that "equal to" a plastic loaded nappy sitting in landfill until the end of time!!!

    USE of energy isn't an insurmountable problem to the world, if we can start generating it from renewables. But landfill WILL continue to be a problem until we cut down on our waste (which I knew we all tend to do, here).

    The Environment Agency's conclusion is: "Neither type of nappy is better or worse for the environment". - but they're only considering the issues of "using up resources such as fossil fuels for electricity, acid rain, and global warming". What about when "fossil fuels" AREN'T the ones used for energy generation? If your washing machine is powered by energy generated using wind or solar power (which hopefull we want to move towards), then your washable nappies are going to have FAR less impact on the environment than those going to landfill.

    The study concludes that depending on which type you choose, this impact happens at different stages (whether in the manufacture, the washing or disposing of - "waste management"), which makes sense.

    BUT - landfill doesn't seem to be among their criteria for study...perhaps their definition of "waste management" is only when used nappies are incinerated and suddenyl don't exist anymore, but what about the ones that stay with us in landfill?

    For me, if something "disposable" isn't "biodegradable", I will always look for an alternative to avoid more waste that will last thousands of years.
  • I had every intention of using reusables when Mollie was born last October. I brought some brand new off Ebay for over £100. The all in one types. She was born very small at just 6 pounds due to pregnancy complications and even today she does not fit in them. Hence I was striaght into disposables. Shes in the ones that takes children up to 25 pounds I think now. Boots brand. Ive never had any leaks as yet. These are always on 3 for 2 so buying the 70 packs i get 210 nappies for £15. But I dont do that. I buy £75 at a time. Giving me 1470 nappies for £75 or 5.1 pence each. PLus I use my double points coupon and instore at the moment you get an extra 500 points for every £25 spend it baby add onto that a 1000 extra points when you spend £75 points coupon from the advantage machine. So including normal points thats 2350 points. By my maths anyway. I always spend my points at Christmas on 3 for 2s for family. So if you take the value of the points off as I really would spend that money in boots anway it makes my nappies 3.5 pence each. Mollie has about 8 a day so thats less than 30p a day. I really dont think I could buy t tree, liners, washing powders and dry them (no line where I live its not possible) for that cost. I do feel bad when I read about the environmental factors. But I do recycle where possible.
    Just thought id add my little bit to the post. Im usually a lurker (unless my house smells like a chip shop after my 1st go with vinegar) but you never know it may save someone a bit. Hope my maths was right now!
    2007 is my getting slim year
    Total weight loss so far is 16llbs:T
    Total to go 15 pounds:eek:
    Not no more as im having a baby:D
  • nabby
    nabby Posts: 37 Forumite
    Loadsabob wrote:
    Did the report you heard actually mention moneysaving and economic costs? I've heard that news item so many times since this morning, and have just checked on the BBC website, and the report doesn't go into costs to parents; purely environmental impact.

    The report looks at and evaluates the environmental impacts arising from every stage of the life cycle of disposable and reusable nappies. In other words it's a life cycle analysis study, aka cradle-to-grave. AFAIK it woiuldn't specifically ascribe direct economic costs.
    Loadsabob wrote:
    I'm sceptical anyway. Sure, washing nappies uses energy and water, so that's an environmental impact, but I don't know how the study finds that "equal to" a plastic loaded nappy sitting in landfill until the end of time!!!

    The study looked closely at a wide range of activities associated with disposable and reusable nappies which affect the environment. These included:
      the energy and material used in the manufacture of the nappy;
      the daily number of changes required for the different types of nappy;
      how reusable nappies are washed – temperature, size of loads, type of detergents etc.

    Now if you look at, for example, the energy used in making a cotton reusable nappy it will be huge - cotton is environmentally costly to produce and given that most of these type of nappies come from China, India, etc, the environmental cost of transporting them over is huge. The other problem is that the majority of people who have washing machines don't have A-rated ones. Furthermore, people use detergent (which has an environmental burden) and don't wash the nappies at the optimum temperature and load weight. If everyone who uses reusable nappies did this, there wouldn't be argument in favour of disposables, tbh.

    Disposables are less of a burden to produce, in environmental terms, as they are desgned for single use, but they have major impacts when disposed of as the majority are landfilled, when they should be incinerated for energy recovery, as is done in many other European countries.
    Loadsabob wrote:
    USE of energy isn't an insurmountable problem to the world, if we can start generating it from renewables. But landfill WILL continue to be a problem until we cut down on our waste (which I knew we all tend to do, here).

    That's a big "if" and will take a generation or two to have any impact. Don't forget, all those countries where the growth in energy demand is greatest are not generally building renewable power generation systems, but using either Oil, coal, gas or nuclear.

    New waste going to landfill will become less of an issue over time as Local Authorities in the UK are set more stringent targets for recovery and recycling of household waste.
    Loadsabob wrote:
    The Environment Agency's conclusion is: "Neither type of nappy is better or worse for the environment". - but they're only considering the issues of "using up resources such as fossil fuels for electricity, acid rain, and global warming". What about when "fossil fuels" AREN'T the ones used for energy generation? If your washing machine is powered by energy generated using wind or solar power (which hopefull we want to move towards), then your washable nappies are going to have FAR less impact on the environment than those going to landfill.

    Actually, the conclusion was:

    Tricia Henton, Director of Environmental Protection at the Environment Agency said: “This study was carried out to establish the true environmental impacts of using disposable and reusable nappies. Although there is no substantial difference between the environmental impacts of the three systems studied, it does show where each system can be improved.

    “We hope manufacturers of disposable nappies will use this study to improve the environmental performance of their products, particularly the quantities going to landfill. Similarly, if parents using reusables want to improve their impact on the environment they will need to look more closely at how they launder nappies, for instance, can the nappies be washed in a bigger load at a lower temperature?

    “The type of nappy that parents buy is a matter of personal choice, but it is important that they can make an informed choice. Studies like this help to inform people about the impact that their actions have on the environment. Life cycle thinking plays an important role in informing the environmental debate.”

    As for your comment on power generation from renewables/non-fossil fuel sources, neither you or I know when the UK will start to generate the majority of its electricity from wind/solar/tidal/hydroelectric, etc, etc. The scope of the study was only to look at the situation in 2002-03. Trying to go into the future brings in far too many variables to make it reliable enough.

    FWIW I am on a "green" electricity tariff with npower - are you on such a tariff? on the other hand I still use gas for heating and cooking so am only offsetting part of my energy usage/needs.
    Loadsabob wrote:
    The study concludes that depending on which type you choose, this impact happens at different stages (whether in the manufacture, the washing or disposing of - "waste management"), which makes sense.

    BUT - landfill doesn't seem to be among their criteria for study...perhaps their definition of "waste management" is only when used nappies are incinerated and suddenyl don't exist anymore, but what about the ones that stay with us in landfill?

    Actually the landfill issue was looked at as part of the study - the impacts of burying mostly inert waste underground were factored in.
    And what happens to old nappies when they are finally thrown away? Generally a percentage of them are landfilled too.
    Loadsabob wrote:
    For me, if something "disposable" isn't "biodegradable", I will always look for an alternative to avoid more waste that will last thousands of years.

    Again nice sentiment, I wish more people thought that way too.

    Don't forget though, that everything you use or consume is disposable in one form or another. And there's also the waste generated during its manufacture and supply to the end-user...

    Lots to ponder on a Thursday afternoon :)
  • Loadsabob
    Loadsabob Posts: 662 Forumite
    Hi Nabby - I appreciate such a detailed response to my email.
    nabby wrote:
    The report looks at and evaluates the environmental impacts arising from every stage of the life cycle of disposable and reusable nappies. In other words it's a life cycle analysis study, aka cradle-to-grave. AFAIK it woiuldn't specifically ascribe direct economic costs.
    Exactly, I was querying the mention of "moneysaving" in the original post. I'd understood that it wasn't the remit of the report to consider the personal economics.
    nabby wrote:
    The study looked closely at a wide range of activities associated with disposable and reusable nappies which affect the environment.
    Yep - the study looks at the whole life-cycle of a nappy, be it disposable or re-usable.
    nabby wrote:
    the energy used in making a cotton reusable nappy it will be huge
    Agreed. As with most of the things we wear etc. I know a lot of us buy second hand clothing for that reason, to lesson demand on the production of new ones from new raw materials, and to lessen clothing miles. I agree with you too, that a reduction in impact of using re-usables can come from an energy efficient washing machine and biodegradable detergents such as Ecover.
    nabby wrote:
    Disposables are less of a burden to produce, in environmental terms, as they are desgned for single use, but they have major impacts when disposed of as the majority are landfilled, when they should be incinerated for energy recovery, as is done in many other European countries.
    Yes, I understood this to be the finding of the study - each has a burden, at different times in its life cycle, and something can be done with each to lessen its environmental impact.

    As regards the use of "cleaner" energy, my point was that it's not use of energy per se that is the threat to the environment, it's production of energy, SO, if everyone contributes to the production of green electricity, the impact of their energy use on the environment is lessened.
    nabby wrote:
    New waste going to landfill will become less of an issue over time as Local Authorities in the UK are set more stringent targets for recovery and recycling of household waste.
    Hopefully. I think the tackling of the problem is accellerating, which is really good news, and I believe cleaner energy can be made from efficient processing of our waste.
    nabby wrote:
    Actually, the conclusion was:
    I felt I had to shorten, so I took the overall conclusion directly from the Environmental Agency. I quoted from their website when I said "Neither type of nappy is better or worse for the environment". They don't say one is better or worse, but that the merits are different.
    nabby wrote:
    The scope of the study was only to look at the situation in 2002-03. Trying to go into the future brings in far too many variables to make it reliable enough.
    I wasn't suggesting the survey (or I) look into the future, I was again illustrating that it's the nature of fossil-fuel electricity production that is the problem to the environment, not the use of electricity in general.
    nabby wrote:
    FWIW I am on a "green" electricity tariff with npower - are you on such a tariff? on the other hand I still use gas for heating and cooking so am only offsetting part of my energy usage/needs.
    Same here - I have Juice, by npower. Well worth it at only about £2 a month more than I was spending before.

    Though the impacts of burying waste may be factored into the study, they're harder to quantify than the burning of fossil fuels to make electricity etc... And whilst we CAN offset some of our energy use by choosing a cleaner supplier, as you and I have, the only way in which we can currently limit our impact on landfill is by producing less waste. Cotton will compost and biodegrade. Plastic won't.

    I believe parents have the right to choose; I don't feel they are obliged to use re-usables, so I hope that wasn't the impression I gave. I also don't think re-usables are the answer to the world's problems - disposable biodegradable ones look to me a good solution, insofar as there IS one!! My only criticism of the study was in the comparison of "environmental impact". The conclusion that the relative impact of each type of nappy is "different" really doesn't give me any more than I knew already...but a lot of members of the public commenting on the survey on radio and TV today have taken it as a green light that "there's no point buying re-usables". Not the fault of the survey, perhaps, but inevitable with the media!
    nabby wrote:
    Lots to ponder on a Thursday afternoon :)
    Indeed! :think:
  • spendaholic
    spendaholic Posts: 1,550 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Debt-free and Proud! Name Dropper
    Gosh, what a heavy debate this turned into.

    Thanks, peeps.

    I think I hate the idea of loads of loaded plastic nappies sitting in a landfill site close to where someone lives. I love the idea of these being incinerated and generating other energy. But while I've never had kids and never intend to (at my age?), and so should probably sit on the fence here, I LOVE to see a line of newly washed nappies blowing in the breeze ... even if they might be softer and fluffier and thicker if they were tumble dried :D - and fresh, clean nappies smell a whole lot nicer too than disposables. Whatever the cost to the environment/pocket.

    You must use what is best for you and yours, and not feel bad if someone else does something differently. I don't see the same debate on sanitary towels ... :eek:
    spendy/she/her ***DEBT-FREE DATE: 11 NOVEMBER 2022!*** Highest debt: £35k (2006) MY WINS: £3,541 CASH; £149 Specsavers voucher; free eye test; goody bag from Scottish Book Trust; tickets to Grand Designs Live; 2-year access to Feel Amazing App (worth £100); Home Improvement & Renovation Show tickets; £50 to spend on chocolate; Harlem Globetrotters tickets; Jesus Christ Superstar tickets + 2 t-shirts; Guardians of the Galaxy goody bag; Birmingham City v Barnsley FC tickets; Marillion tickets; Dancing on Ice tickets; Barnsley FC v Millwall tickets
  • Curry_Queen
    Curry_Queen Posts: 5,589 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    I don't see the same debate on sanitary towels ... :eek:

    We have actually done that one too ;)


    I'll go find the link for you!



    Here it is :)
    "An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will"
    ~
    It is that what you do, good or bad,
    will come back to you three times as strong!

  • spendaholic
    spendaholic Posts: 1,550 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Debt-free and Proud! Name Dropper
    Well, I knew that if it was already on here someone would point the way ... :)

    EDIT: Very interesting - brings water to the eyes and all that - but hardly the same level of debate ... :D

    Thanks, though. I'll bear it in mind ...
    spendy/she/her ***DEBT-FREE DATE: 11 NOVEMBER 2022!*** Highest debt: £35k (2006) MY WINS: £3,541 CASH; £149 Specsavers voucher; free eye test; goody bag from Scottish Book Trust; tickets to Grand Designs Live; 2-year access to Feel Amazing App (worth £100); Home Improvement & Renovation Show tickets; £50 to spend on chocolate; Harlem Globetrotters tickets; Jesus Christ Superstar tickets + 2 t-shirts; Guardians of the Galaxy goody bag; Birmingham City v Barnsley FC tickets; Marillion tickets; Dancing on Ice tickets; Barnsley FC v Millwall tickets
  • nabby
    nabby Posts: 37 Forumite
    Hi Loadsabob, you raise some interesting points. Is a more environmentally aware way of life something you're generally interested in as your knowledge is impressive? Or do you work in the sector?

    I guess I ought to confess before this goes any further that I work for the very same consultants that the Environment Agency used for this study, indeed the person who did the study is one of my colleagues :)

    I'm no life cycle expert though - I look at other far more interesting things to do with recycling...

    If I told you any more I'd have to silence you :D
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