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JSA because of change to contract?
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Ames
Posts: 18,459 Forumite
Hi all, this is a bit long and complicated so please bear with me.
My sister graduated this summer with a degree in audio technology.
In September she started a job as a sound technician. After the trial period she was told they wanted to demote her to crew because she needed to improve her confidence. They also said she needed to practice miking up drums, which wasn't true - she was just as fast as the other sound tech, and it was a major part of her dissertation. They said they wanted to take away the stress so she could learn. She was told that this would be a training period until January, and that her wage would go down from £6.65ph to around £5.90 - it's actually £5.80. Out of that is taken £38pw rent and heating. She's been told by another manager that she'll never get a sound tech job there because there isn't a job to get - she'll have to wait for someone to leave. She's only got 30 contracted hours pw until January.
There's also been a lot of other problems with the job, but I'm going to contact Acas for that side of things.
So, the questions for you lot (finally, sorry it's so long). She's 24, single, no kids.
1. Can she leave and go back on job seekers? Would it count as leaving voluntarily even though the contract has been changed? She's only £10pw better off working, but as she doesn't have a kitchen her food bills are higher and eat this up. She can't use the staff canteen because it's closed when she's not working.
2. Is there anything else she's entitled to? I thought that she might be better off moving into a rented flat and claiming LHA, but I'm not sure.
It's complicated further by her being tied into a tenancy here in Leeds, if she could get out of that she could just about manage, but £300pm on a wage of less than £500pm just isn't possible. Her flatmate's been messing her about saying a friend was moving in and then changing her mind, she is trying to find someone to take over the lease.
If you need to know more just ask.
Thanks for any help.
Having had a quick look at Acas' website, in law a substantial change to an employment contract means that the original contract has come to an end, would the DWP see it that way? or would she be expected to agree to the new contract?
My sister graduated this summer with a degree in audio technology.
In September she started a job as a sound technician. After the trial period she was told they wanted to demote her to crew because she needed to improve her confidence. They also said she needed to practice miking up drums, which wasn't true - she was just as fast as the other sound tech, and it was a major part of her dissertation. They said they wanted to take away the stress so she could learn. She was told that this would be a training period until January, and that her wage would go down from £6.65ph to around £5.90 - it's actually £5.80. Out of that is taken £38pw rent and heating. She's been told by another manager that she'll never get a sound tech job there because there isn't a job to get - she'll have to wait for someone to leave. She's only got 30 contracted hours pw until January.
There's also been a lot of other problems with the job, but I'm going to contact Acas for that side of things.
So, the questions for you lot (finally, sorry it's so long). She's 24, single, no kids.
1. Can she leave and go back on job seekers? Would it count as leaving voluntarily even though the contract has been changed? She's only £10pw better off working, but as she doesn't have a kitchen her food bills are higher and eat this up. She can't use the staff canteen because it's closed when she's not working.
2. Is there anything else she's entitled to? I thought that she might be better off moving into a rented flat and claiming LHA, but I'm not sure.
It's complicated further by her being tied into a tenancy here in Leeds, if she could get out of that she could just about manage, but £300pm on a wage of less than £500pm just isn't possible. Her flatmate's been messing her about saying a friend was moving in and then changing her mind, she is trying to find someone to take over the lease.
If you need to know more just ask.
Thanks for any help.
Having had a quick look at Acas' website, in law a substantial change to an employment contract means that the original contract has come to an end, would the DWP see it that way? or would she be expected to agree to the new contract?
Unless I say otherwise 'you' means the general you not you specifically.
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Comments
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Having got a foothold in her chosen field (however tenuous) I think she would be mad to give it up to go back onto JSA! Plenty of people in her situation are doing this sort of thing on an unpaid basis just to get a foot in the door so the idea of giving it up because she's not much better off is just crazy!
I think she'd be much better off picking up a few extra hours work in something like a bar to bring her money up to a more manageable level and then looking to get a better job in her field after she's got a year or so's experience under her belt.
On a practical level; has she looked at claiming LHA for the flatshare she's currently in? In addition, when she reaches 25, she may find that she's elegible for working tax credits.0 -
She hasn't got a foot in the door though, she's crew (she described it as a glorified cleaner) and that wont lead to technician work.
She can't get a second job because of her hours, it's usually early evening till 2am but there's also afternoon shifts now and then.
She wouldn't be able to get LHA for the flat share because she's not living there, she's living 4 hours drive away.
She knows she'll be fine in Feb when she turns 25, but she can't afford to manage till then.
Sorry that sounds all negative, I appreciate your help, and I should have explained things better in my first post, I was half asleep when I made it!Unless I say otherwise 'you' means the general you not you specifically.0 -
Oldernotwiser wrote: »Having got a foothold in her chosen field (however tenuous) I think she would be mad to give it up to go back onto JSA! Plenty of people in her situation are doing this sort of thing on an unpaid basis just to get a foot in the door so the idea of giving it up because she's not much better off is just crazy!
I agree with this. My daughter worked for nothing to get herself noticed in the job she wanted, just to show how keen she was and hoping they would think of her when a temp job came up. In fact it cost her money as she had to find her fares. She even even wrote articles for nothing for them and they still use these on their website and these are used in discussions on various forums!
Eventually, she started getting a few hours with them on a temp basis, then weeks with them, still on a temp basis. It has paid off as she then had the experience with them to apply for a fulltime job and now works fulltime on a decent wage.
If your sister sets her goals on a job, she will get it if she can get the experience. Don't let her give up on her dreams. My daughter was having to fetch drinks for people when she first worked for nothing and she has a physics degree.
Is your sister working for the BBC?RENTING? Have you checked to see that your landlord has permission from their mortgage lender to rent the property? If not, you could be thrown out with very little notice.
Read the sticky on the House Buying, Renting & Selling board.0 -
I can't see that she's entitled to anything until she turns 25. Why /for how long will she be tied to her lease in Leeds?
How will she manage the end of her employment when she applies for jobs in future? She will have left due to demotion for competence related issues - most prospective employers will want to know why employment ended, especially after such as short time, and it could impact on the references she could expect from her employer. Surely it would be better to stick it out, prove herself to be competent and look for another job whilst she is in employment.
I presume she'd return to Leeds if she left the job - what would the employment prospects be like there in her chosen field?0 -
Missmoneypenny, she's not working for the BBC, although I don't want to say what the company is. Ironically, she's worked with the BBC before, while she was a student, and she's applied for a training position with them. The problem with what you're suggesting is money - she can't afford to live on what she's earning now, and she's been warned informally that her contracted hours will go down to nil in January until the season starts up again.
Macro - She's tied into the lease till next summer. She thought that her flatmate's friend would be taking over in January, but that's fallen through.
Getting another job afterwards is something that's worrying her, but not as much as not being able to afford food.
There'd be a lot more prospects in Leeds in her field, she's in the middle of nowhere now whereas there are lots of companies in a commutable distance from Leeds. This was the first job she was offered, and from what she was told at interview it sounded great, but the reality has been different. As she was on JSA, she thought she had to take this or lose her benefits.Unless I say otherwise 'you' means the general you not you specifically.0 -
Missmoneypenny, she's not working for the BBC, although I don't want to say what the company is. Ironically, she's worked with the BBC before, while she was a student, and she's applied for a training position with them. The problem with what you're suggesting is money - she can't afford to live on what she's earning now, and she's been warned informally that her contracted hours will go down to nil in January until the season starts up again.
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Wouldn't she be better then to wait until January when, in effect, her contract will end and she won't have to face losing JSA for leaving voluntarily?
I still think that being "crew" is a foot in the door until she can get something better; I don't think you understand how low you have to start in this sort of area, even with a degree.
If she can't get bar hours because of her work, what about picking up a few mornings cleaning work? This would bring her money up to a more manageable level for the time being.0 -
It would definitely be silly to give up the job which is in the profession she wants to be in. I'm sure there would be no shortage of people wanting the crew job.....a foot in the door is better than nothing. Just because she's not really happy with the role, if something else comes up then at least she can say that she has crew experience, rather than JSA experience!
I get a bit fed-up of people saying that they're only X quid better off through working. There are more benefits to working than just the financial side.0 -
Your sister is being ripped off. As you know I know the industry inside out, as a musician and as someone who has owned a sound company.
Crew members are all self employed and charge a day rate. The ususal rate for crew is anything from £70-£150 per day, depending on experience and if they are a drum/keys/guitar tech. I assume your sister has little live experience so she would be general crew.
She should apply to one of the larger sound companies, such as Britannia Row, Wigwam, concert sound, Orbital, SSE etc. Most of them will want to start her in the warehouse maintaining equipment as well as getting her to go on some live gigs in a junior role. The trouble is that although a degree is nice to have it does absolutely nothing to prepare her for the actual job on the road so most companies won't be all that interested in her degree. But, that said, she should be able to take an apprentice type job with one of them.
Some agencies have their own schools. I know Cato Trust have one and they send their junior crew out on loads of gigs as do London Music School. I'm sure there are loads of others too.
It will be a case of making a lot of phone calls and pestering because sending emails will get her nowhere. I used to get hundreds of CVs emailed to me and to be honest I deleted them because you can't just go putting random people off the net out on gigs. Having said that, I did employ one or two MSEers on the odd gig when I just needed extra hands for load ins and outs, so being prepared to just do a bit of lifting and carrying will stand her in a good position.
Another thing to do is to enquire at all of the local and national venues, even smaller theatres. Just getting some stage experience at this stage will be the best thing she can do. This is a good time of year to get going with that because the christmas season is the busiest of the year.
Let me know if I can help any further. It's a tricky industry and one that most people don't understand. It's also one that can bite you badly and see you destitute if you don't know how it really works.:A
:A"Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid" - Albert Einstein0 -
But her contract wont end in January, she just wont be getting paid for it.
I agree with you about there being more to work than just money, but she's miserable, can't eat properly because of not being allowed cooking stuff and isn't getting a chance to progress in her career - it was supposed to be a training thing being on crew until she got the tech job in Jan, but she's not getting any training and one of the managers has told her there's no job coming up in Jan, so she'll still be crew, expected to be there for any hours she can get, but not be guaranteed any pay. Her original contract guaranteed her 30 hours pay pw even if she worked less, the new one doesn't. I understand that you have to start low, she doesn't. When she was on JSA through the summer I offered to use my contacts in the voluntary sector to get her experience but she wasn't interested. She thinks that anything less than paid work in the right position will look bad on her CV. Although I don't think she's really thinking straight at all right now.
She wouldn't want a cleaning job too, she's doing a physical job for long hours on the day she does work and needs to get sleep in too, and time for applying for anything else she can find.
I really don't mean to belittle your ideas, I'm really on a tightrope here between common sense and sister being on the edge, I need to tread carefully with her. She asked me to find out legal positions with benefits, employment contracts, and if there's a way out of her flat lease, so she wont listen to advice outside that. I've tried before, and just get told I'm being controlling and not supportive. So, I just need to get the info for her so she can make up her own mind. She wont listen to anyone who's not in the industry when it comes to how to make inroads into it unfortunately.Unless I say otherwise 'you' means the general you not you specifically.0 -
Your sister is being ripped off. As you know I know the industry inside out, as a musician and as someone who has owned a sound company.
Thanks Toto, I'll respond to your points.
Crew members are all self employed and charge a day rate. The ususal rate for crew is anything from £70-£150 per day, depending on experience and if they are a drum/keys/guitar tech. I assume your sister has little live experience so she would be general crew.
Not sure what counts as little live experience. She did the sound for the second stage of a festival (Beached, if you've heard of it), and for the first two months of this job was doing live sound, bands like Herman's Hermits told her she was doing a great job.
She should apply to one of the larger sound companies, such as Britannia Row, Wigwam, concert sound, Orbital, SSE etc. Most of them will want to start her in the warehouse maintaining equipment as well as getting her to go on some live gigs in a junior role. The trouble is that although a degree is nice to have it does absolutely nothing to prepare her for the actual job on the road so most companies won't be all that interested in her degree. But, that said, she should be able to take an apprentice type job with one of them.
Thanks for that. She was applying for jobs that came up on specialist websites, anything from instrument shops to studios. By the sounds of it she needs to be more proactive and put herself out there more. Although not having a phone is sa bit of a problem, I could help her out with some phone credit or something though.
Some agencies have their own schools. I know Cato Trust have one and they send their junior crew out on loads of gigs as do London Music School. I'm sure there are loads of others too.
It will be a case of making a lot of phone calls and pestering because sending emails will get her nowhere. I used to get hundreds of CVs emailed to me and to be honest I deleted them because you can't just go putting random people off the net out on gigs. Having said that, I did employ one or two MSEers on the odd gig when I just needed extra hands for load ins and outs, so being prepared to just doing a bit of lifting and carrying will stand her in a good position.
She is prepared to do the lifting and carrying. She has references from some industry people (I wouldn't know if they're high up or not, she says they are). She's also done a bit of sound recording of bands she knows, partly to get practice but also to get her name out. The band she recorded has several members who are roadies, so depending on the band they could vouch for her too.
Another thing to do is to enquire at all of the local and national venues, even smaller theatres. Just getting some stage experience at this stage will be the best thing she can do. This is a good time of year to get going with that because the christmas season is the busiest of the year.
She said she did that but didn't get a reply, but again it was through email.
Let me know if I can help any further. It's a tricky industry and one that most people don't understand. It's also one that can bite you badly and see you destitute if you don't know how it really works.
That's brilliant thanks, I'll send her your post. I think she is starting to get bitten, from what she's saying they took on her and another guy for one job, and she's ended up doing the grunt work while he goes on and does the sound. They were supposed to share their skills with each other, but he wouldn't show her. She could do front of house but not monitors, he was the other way around. So when it came to her having to do monitors she didn't know what she was doing and made a big mistake.Unless I say otherwise 'you' means the general you not you specifically.0
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