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It may be possible to reclaim money from paypal!
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cyril82
Posts: 948 Forumite
If you have lost out to paypal chargebacks you may be able to reclaim the
money!
Anyone who visits these boards regularly will be aware that I have often spoken out about how I feel it is wrong that eBay & PayPal are removing a sellers legal right not to accept refunds on auctioned goods, especially since eBay allow the option of refunds not accepted on their website.
However despite their being no legal obligation on a seller to accept returns on auctioned goods as online auctions are exempt from standard consumer protection such as the sale of goods act and the distance selling regulations many people are finding themselves being chased by heavy handed debt collection agencies after PayPal refunded a buyer either against the sellers will or without their knowledge when in reality there is no legal obligation for the seller to refund the buyer of reimburse PayPal if they auctioned the goods and stated no returns, but PayPal’s heavy handed tactics often scare sellers out of standing their ground and pursuing their argument.
The Daily mail have highlighted this in an article dated from April this year and it seems that there may be a course of action for those who have been bullied into refunding on auctioned goods or who have had money stripped from their account and returned to a buyer despite never getting their goods back. You can read the daily mail article here. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/article-1170012/Friend-foe-Money-Mail-raises-new-questions-online-payment-service-PayPal.html
The article states that while PayPal are no longer regulated by the FSA they are still voluntary members of the financial ombudsman scheme and that means the ombudsman has the power to instruct paypal to return your money if they agree you should not have been forced to pay the money either to PayPal as reimbursement or to the buyer where PayPal took your money and gave it away without your consent.
Many businesses on eBay are happy to offer a returns policy on auctioned goods despite no legal requirement on them to do so, I did when I was operating as a business on ebay but often this affects the smaller part time/occasional sellers like the most of the people who come to MSE, people who are just trying to sell off a few personal items then end up without the money they thought they had made and often without their goods as well.
For a while now I have been saying that there must be a way to get back your money from PayPal or eBay in these instances and now according to the daily mail, there may be, if you have been a victim of heavy handed forced refunds by eBay or PayPal and left out of pocket it may worth making a complaint to the ombudsman, not only might you get your money back but if enough people take action it may force them to rethink their policies and actually invest some of their own money in protecting buyers rather than protecting buyers by removing the sellers legal rights and bullying them into refunding people they should not have to refund.
What do people think? Is it worth trying to recoup money from PayPal via the ombudsman or should sellers just accept the losses?
I say reclaim..............
money!
Anyone who visits these boards regularly will be aware that I have often spoken out about how I feel it is wrong that eBay & PayPal are removing a sellers legal right not to accept refunds on auctioned goods, especially since eBay allow the option of refunds not accepted on their website.
However despite their being no legal obligation on a seller to accept returns on auctioned goods as online auctions are exempt from standard consumer protection such as the sale of goods act and the distance selling regulations many people are finding themselves being chased by heavy handed debt collection agencies after PayPal refunded a buyer either against the sellers will or without their knowledge when in reality there is no legal obligation for the seller to refund the buyer of reimburse PayPal if they auctioned the goods and stated no returns, but PayPal’s heavy handed tactics often scare sellers out of standing their ground and pursuing their argument.
The Daily mail have highlighted this in an article dated from April this year and it seems that there may be a course of action for those who have been bullied into refunding on auctioned goods or who have had money stripped from their account and returned to a buyer despite never getting their goods back. You can read the daily mail article here. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/article-1170012/Friend-foe-Money-Mail-raises-new-questions-online-payment-service-PayPal.html
The article states that while PayPal are no longer regulated by the FSA they are still voluntary members of the financial ombudsman scheme and that means the ombudsman has the power to instruct paypal to return your money if they agree you should not have been forced to pay the money either to PayPal as reimbursement or to the buyer where PayPal took your money and gave it away without your consent.
Many businesses on eBay are happy to offer a returns policy on auctioned goods despite no legal requirement on them to do so, I did when I was operating as a business on ebay but often this affects the smaller part time/occasional sellers like the most of the people who come to MSE, people who are just trying to sell off a few personal items then end up without the money they thought they had made and often without their goods as well.
For a while now I have been saying that there must be a way to get back your money from PayPal or eBay in these instances and now according to the daily mail, there may be, if you have been a victim of heavy handed forced refunds by eBay or PayPal and left out of pocket it may worth making a complaint to the ombudsman, not only might you get your money back but if enough people take action it may force them to rethink their policies and actually invest some of their own money in protecting buyers rather than protecting buyers by removing the sellers legal rights and bullying them into refunding people they should not have to refund.
What do people think? Is it worth trying to recoup money from PayPal via the ombudsman or should sellers just accept the losses?
I say reclaim..............
0
Comments
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I suggest if you want to use paypal, you abide by paypal's rules.
I don't see the connection between paypals rules and your legal rights as a seller.
If you've sold an item and not been paid for it, pursue the buyer if you want, not paypal."Now to trolling as a concept. .... Personally, I've always found it a little sad that people choose to spend such a large proportion of their lives in this way but they do, and we have to deal with it." - MSE Forum Manager 6th July 20100 -
I suggest if you want to use paypal, you abide by paypal's rules.
I don't see the connection between paypals rules and your legal rights as a seller.
If you've sold an item and not been paid for it, pursue the buyer if you want, not paypal.
Many people don't use PayPal by choice they use it because they want to use eBay and eBay force them to use accept PayPal if they want to use their services/
The connection between PayPal’s rules and your legal rights is obvious, if you sell an item by auction and the law states auctions are exempt from mandatory returns and eBay allow you to select the option of no returns then PayPal a few weeks later strip money from your account it affects that person financially and in a negative way, surely that's unfair and unjustifiable especially if it's also unlawful.0 -
Many people don't use ebay or paypal at all. No one forces anyone to use ebay.Many people don't use PayPal by choice they use it because they want to use eBay and eBay force them to use accept PayPal if they want to use their services/
For those that elect to use ebay as a seller, their rules say you must accept paypal as an accepted payment form If you don't like the rule, don't use ebay to sell your items.
For those that buy on ebay, the seller elects what methods of payment are an acceptable form (as long as they comply with ebay rules). If the seller doesn't offer any alternative to paypal and you as a buyer don't wish to use paypal, don't buy from that buyer.
I still fail to see how you connect the rules of ebay/paypal with your legal rights as a seller.The connection between PayPal’s rules and your legal rights is obvious, if you sell an item by auction and the law states auctions are exempt from mandatory returns and eBay allow you to select the option of no returns then PayPal a few weeks later strip money from your account it affects that person financially and in a negative way, surely that's unfair and unjustifiable especially if it's also unlawful.
If you sell via ebay, you must accept their rules. However, those rules don't detract you from your legal rights.
When you sell an item, supply that item, but the buyer doesn't pay, that's a legal dispute between you as the seller and the buyer who hasn't paid. Nothing to do with the medium through which the item was advertised, or the medium through which payment was made.
e.g. if you sold an item through your local paper and the the buyer sent you a stolen cheque, but you had already supplied the item in good faith would you pursue the the paper for carrying the advertisement, the bank for refusing to honour the cheque or the buyer who had failed to pay for the item?"Now to trolling as a concept. .... Personally, I've always found it a little sad that people choose to spend such a large proportion of their lives in this way but they do, and we have to deal with it." - MSE Forum Manager 6th July 20100 -
I get the feeling of Deja Vu. I'm sure you've said all this before0
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I still fail to see how you connect the rules of ebay/paypal with your legal rights as a seller.?
They are connected because if ebay/paypal policy contradicts the law then those policies are unlawful, therefore unfair and unjustifiable and legally unenforceable.If you sell via ebay, you must accept their rules. However, those rules don't detract you from your legal rights.
When you sell an item, supply that item, but the buyer doesn't pay, that's a legal dispute between you as the seller and the buyer who hasn't paid. Nothing to do with the medium through which the item was advertised, or the medium through which payment was made.
e.g. if you sold an item through your local paper and the the buyer sent you a stolen cheque, but you had already supplied the item in good faith would you pursue the the paper for carrying the advertisement, the bank for refusing to honour the cheque or the buyer who had failed to pay for the item?
It's not so much an issue of a buyer not paying for an item, it's when they demand their money back on auctioned goods and a seller has the right to refuse but ebay or paypal step in and enforce the refund on a seller, to use your newspaper example, the news paper would not debit your bank account to refund the buyer or refund them their selves and send debt collectors after you, also classified ads are different to auctions in terms of protection so not really an equal comparison.
As i said in my original post, a lot of businesses are happy to forgo their legal right not to take returns, having said that a lot of very large high street retailers that use ebay do not accept returns on auctioned goods, i doubt they get their accounts debited by paypal, the lawyers would have a field day.
My point is that we see a lot of private sellers coming here that have been left out of pocket, often for substantial amounts of money, or been subjected to very intimidating debt collection letters for money they do not owe to paypal.
This is why i brought up the subject, these are consumer forums and surely we should be looking at advising more than just "shut up and accept it" if consumers are losing money to large corporations and it is not lawful we should encourage action, especially via organisations like the ombudsman service, after all that is why they are their decide if what these companies are doing is fair. There is no risk involved to the consumer.
The fact is ordinary people are losing out, watchdog have reported on it, the national press are reporting on it, surely action should be taken.0 -
The article is toot, it says at the bottom to check the feedback of buyers and sellers because 100% means all their transactions have been successful - sellers can only leave positive feedback!!!0
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The article is toot, it says at the bottom to check the feedback of buyers and sellers because 100% means all their transactions have been successful - sellers can only leave positive feedback!!!
thats just bog standard advice rhymed off daily on ebay's own help pages, hardly makes the rest of the article "toot".
Objectively, if you sold a pair of shoes for £109, as the girl in the Daily Mail article did, and paypal forced through a refund despite you not getting your goods back would you feel that that was fair and reasonable behaviour? honestly?0 -
it's when they demand their money back on auctioned goods and a seller has the right to refuse but ebay or paypal step in and enforce the refund on a seller
Usual rubbish being spouted. Make a legal arguement here that ebay sales are an auction. Back it up by FACT, prior legal cases, even links to English Law will be needed, not some link to the daily mail:rotfl:0 -
Usual rubbish being spouted. Make a legal arguement here that ebay sales are an auction. Back it up by FACT, prior legal cases, even links to English Law will be needed, not some link to the daily mail:rotfl:
Ebay sales that are not buy it now's are auctions by definition, if in doubt check out the english dictionary's definition of an auction below:
1. or (plural auctions) sale by bidding: a sale of goods or property at which intending buyers bid against one another for individual items, each of which is sold to the bidder offering the highest price an Internet auction
I don't know where you are coming from on that one but i am not aware of any cases in english law that show ebay sales by bidding are not auctions or that anyone has ever tried to contest that they are auctions, do you have any examples of uk legal cases showing ebay sales are not auctions?
It would be interesting to see if you do.0 -
If thats going to be the basis of your case, :rotfl:. Why not also bring a copy of the daily mail into court and use that.
You are meant to be making a case here, your case seems to centre around an unknown dictionaries definition of the word 'Auction'. Where are you going to go from there.
I tend to prefer the following definition of an auction
"A method of attaining a price for sale by an auctioneer for the sale of goods or land by competitive bids. The contract of sale is created on the falling of the auctioneer's hammer. If a reserve price is not reached, the goods may be sold to the highest bidder, or withdrawn. Online 'auctions' generally do not fall under the common law definition of an auction."
http://www.gillhams.com/dictionary/107.cfm
But that was written by a solicitor, so what does he (or she) know. Feel free, at this point, to argue about the meaning of "generally", as I'm sure thats where you'll go next. But instead, I would point you into looking at whether ebay is classed as an "auction".0
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