bailiff help please

screwball · 16 June 2009 at 9:33PM

Im totally new here so please accept my apologies if this is in the wrong section... but I need help please.

the council have referred a council tax debt to bailiffs, we have been making payments to the bailiffs online when possible to reduce the debt because the bailiff advised they "didnt do direct debits" and they dont offer payment books.

we have made payments as and when we can and no formal agreement was made between the bailiffs and ourselves for a certain amount or a monthly date for payments to be made.

on friday I made a payment, online as usual, and the amount outstanding was "x" amount.. however, the same day we received a letter through the door giving us just 24 hours to pay the balance which was over £200 more than the balance online that same day.

we contacted the bailiff and when we asked for a statement of their charges, were told this was "unavailable" but that we must pay the full amount before the end of june.. we are unable to do this, advised them of this, and again were told monthly payments were not an option.

we have also contacted the local council, requesting they take this debt back due to our being unable to make payment in full by the end of the month, and we also mentioned the excessive charges, the council replied stating that the debt will remain with the bailiff and that we are to sort out the charges with the bailiff.

we seem to be stuck between a rock and a hard place. I have done some research and am aware that the bailiff charges are very excessive, but now idea what to do next.. I am unable to hide the car and I have teenagers here during the day while Im away working who might just open the door to a bailiff. What can I do next ? any advice would be gratefully received.
thankyou.

Enfieldian · 16 June 2009 at 9:50PM

What Bailiffs ask for in charges is certainly excessive.

What they CAN legally charge is different, usually capped at a first letter/visit and second letter/visit fee.

All this tosh about "attendance" "levy" and "van" fees has no legal bearing unless they have a signed walking possession order.

The biggest problem is that they deduct their fees BEFORE anything is passed to the council on your account, therefore they can, in their own minds, keep increasing the amount owed by adding extra fees.

If I were you I would contact the council and find out how much is outstanding according to them and/or make a payment online directly to them.

You will find more clear advice on fees on CAG - Consumer Action Group, however the two letter/visit fees come to about £42 if i recall clearly.

Also the Bailiff code of practice states that if the property is only occupied by those under a certain age then they SHOULD about turn and come back later.

linzi1uk · 16 June 2009 at 10:00PM

Hi,
I never signed any walking possesion order yet i got charged £175 for a van, prior to that I paid them £130 which they never paid to the council, so I went to the council and paid the full amount off to them, If you go to consumer action group forums there is loads of help on there, Im sure once the debt is paid to the council the bailiffs cant do anything, I was advised not to pay the bailiffs anything after that and pay directly to the council

RobertoMoir · 16 June 2009 at 10:25PM

Enfieldian wrote: »

What Bailiffs ask for in charges is certainly excessive.

What they CAN legally charge is different, usually capped at a first letter/visit and second letter/visit fee.

All this tosh about "attendance" "levy" and "van" fees has no legal bearing unless they have a signed walking possession order..

A walking possession is not needed to levy on goods.

RobertoMoir · 16 June 2009 at 10:29PM

screwball wrote: »

Im totally new here so please accept my apologies if this is in the wrong section... but I need help please.

the council have referred a council tax debt to bailiffs, we have been making payments to the bailiffs online when possible to reduce the debt because the bailiff advised they "didnt do direct debits" and they dont offer payment books.

we have made payments as and when we can and no formal agreement was made between the bailiffs and ourselves for a certain amount or a monthly date for payments to be made.

on friday I made a payment, online as usual, and the amount outstanding was "x" amount.. however, the same day we received a letter through the door giving us just 24 hours to pay the balance which was over £200 more than the balance online that same day.

we contacted the bailiff and when we asked for a statement of their charges, were told this was "unavailable" but that we must pay the full amount before the end of june.. we are unable to do this, advised them of this, and again were told monthly payments were not an option.

we have also contacted the local council, requesting they take this debt back due to our being unable to make payment in full by the end of the month, and we also mentioned the excessive charges, the council replied stating that the debt will remain with the bailiff and that we are to sort out the charges with the bailiff.

we seem to be stuck between a rock and a hard place. I have done some research and am aware that the bailiff charges are very excessive, but now idea what to do next.. I am unable to hide the car and I have teenagers here during the day while Im away working who might just open the door to a bailiff. What can I do next ? any advice would be gratefully received.
thankyou.

Refuse to pay the bailiff without a breakdown of the bill.
Are the teenagers under 18? Bailiffs can't enforce a debt while only minors are at home.
Complain to your local counsellor that the bailiffs appear to be making illegal charges against your account but you have no way of telling because they won't give you a breakdown of what you owe and their fees. Bailiffs are agents of the council and the council are responsible for their actions.

PM Herbie21, who is very good at this kind of thing and much more up to date with things than I am.

I'm going to repost some general advice I've posted before on what bailiffs can and can not do.

You shouldn't allow bailiffs into your home, but if they have a warrant that allows them to do so, it's up to them to attempt to gain entry peacefully, not for you to tell them whether or not you allow them to! I'm a former bailiff and we never used to take much notice of what people told us they were going to "allow" us to do, we simply concentrated on what we were legally entitled to do.

For this kind of debt, unless the bailiff has been into your house already and has levied distress on goods in the house and got you to sign a document called a 'walking possession' then they cannot force their way into your house.

They only have the right to gain 'peaceable entry' (presuming my assumptions are correct about them not being in before).

Peaceable entry doesn't include kicking your door down or getting a locksmith to drill your locks. This is something they can't do.
Peaceable entry doesn't include pushing past someone in the doorway - that's assault.
Peaceable entry doesn't include entering the property when only minors are there.
Peaceable entry does include tricking someone into letting them in "Oh really? You say you've spoke to the council, can I come in to use your phone to double-check what they said?"
Peaceable entry does include climbing in through an open window or going round the back to try your back door in case you forgot to lock it.

Speak to the council and find out for yourself if they won't accept an arrangement from you. Some will and some won't in my experience. If they do, great; if they don't, then it isn't like you've lost anything or incurred more costs just for asking.

Be very careful about letting the bailiff into your house to levy distress. Once they're in, they have the right to remove goods there and then. Not saying they will, in fact they probably won't because they'd rather have the money, but you do need to understand the stakes that you're playing with at this point.

maninthestreet · 16 June 2009 at 10:49PM

Are you sure you are dealin with bailiffs? Perhaps they are a Debt Collection Agency?

RobertoMoir · 16 June 2009 at 10:59PM

maninthestreet wrote: »

Are you sure you are dealin with bailiffs? Perhaps they are a Debt Collection Agency?

Not if they're collecting council tax for a council. That's done by certificated bailiffs.

screwball · 17 June 2009 at 12:04AM

thankyou for all your advice

)

another question.. if I pay the council a payment direct, even though they have asked me to deal with the bailiffs, will it stop the bailiffs coming round to the house ? do they have to inform the bailiffs that I have made a payment ? does showing willingness to pay help even though the council is currently insisting I just deal with the bailiffs ?

and yes, my teens are under the age of 18, and my younger teen is autistic and finds strangers distressing, a point I have made to the council, but that has also made no difference.

btw.. the letter put the letter box states..

quote

"bailiff removal"
liability order for unpaid council tax

payment due in full - 24 hours

I have attended today with the intention of removing goods and chattels as are necessary to discharge the above debt and any additional enforcement costs incurred.

please note, no further arrangements are acceptable and payment is now required in full by clear funds only.

I will re-attend at your address at my convenience and may remove goods even in your absence. Should you wish to avoid this course of action, contact me immediately to arrange prompt payment.

no contact will be taken as your refusal to pay

end quote.

maninthestreet · 17 June 2009 at 8:58AM

RobertoMoir wrote: »

Not if they're collecting council tax for a council. That's done by certificated bailiffs.

Bailiffs are appointed by a court.
Can the OP tells us whether a court order has been made against them for payment of this debt?

RobertoMoir · 17 June 2009 at 10:56AM

maninthestreet wrote: »

Bailiffs are appointed by a court.

Not for council tax. The council applies for a Liability Order to the magistrates court, and if it is granted, can then instruct bailiffs itself.

maninthestreet wrote: »

Can the OP tells us whether a court order has been made against them for payment of this debt?

They may not know. Quite often councils tell you that they will take you to court then apply for a LO very swiftly and get it granted whether or not the defendant is present. With the LO granted they can take a series of enforcement steps to recover the debt. Reading's policies are typical enough to use as an example.

You may be familiar with the process for enforcing CCJs. The process for enforcing council tax has very little in common with the CCJ process. Trust me on this, as daft as it sounds.

It was a long while ago now but I'm a former bailiff who worked at a couple of aspects of bailiffing, and I have substantial experience of the process for enforcing council tax debts pretty much all the way through the process up to serving arrest warrants.

RobertoMoir · 17 June 2009 at 11:06AM

screwball wrote: »

thankyou for all your advice )

another question.. if I pay the council a payment direct, even though they have asked me to deal with the bailiffs, will it stop the bailiffs coming round to the house ? do they have to inform the bailiffs that I have made a payment ? does showing willingness to pay help even though the council is currently insisting I just deal with the bailiffs ?

The bailiffs are in theory entitled to continue enforcement of the debt for their fees (the ones they've legally charged you, anyway), in fact what I'm told happens sometimes these days is that the council themselves will pass the fees on to the bailiff company if you make a full payment of the council tax debt to the council, which would still leave you with a short-fall in the amount of council tax debt you owe. I suspect the exact details of what could happen here might vary from council to council, they do have different policies about things are done.

screwball wrote: »

and yes, my teens are under the age of 18, and my younger teen is autistic and finds strangers distressing, a point I have made to the council, but that has also made no difference.

No, that won't make a difference to the council wanting to enforce the debt (look at it from their point of view, it's hard to tell the difference between people who are having a real problem paying and people who don't want to pay and use every excuse in the book).

The bailiffs cannot enter the property and enforce the debt while only minors are there. Tell your children that they should refuse entry to the bailiff and phone the police to report a trespass if the bailiffs enter the house while they are home without an adult.

screwball wrote: »

btw.. the letter put the letter box states..

quote

"bailiff removal"
liability order for unpaid council tax

payment due in full - 24 hours

I have attended today with the intention of removing goods and chattels as are necessary to discharge the above debt and any additional enforcement costs incurred.

please note, no further arrangements are acceptable and payment is now required in full by clear funds only.

I will re-attend at your address at my convenience and may remove goods even in your absence. Should you wish to avoid this course of action, contact me immediately to arrange prompt payment.

no contact will be taken as your refusal to pay

end quote.

This is the standard bluff and bluster letter that bailiff companies always tend to use. When I was a bailiff I had a briefcase full of letters that said something similar.

I can only repeat my advice to contact Herbie21 (also see her website here) and to also contact your local counsellor to complain about the bailiffs - stress that you're happy to pay your council tax even if you're struggling for whatever reason, you're just concerned about the bailiffs refusal to present you with a proper bill and the possibility that they are doing this to conceal illegal charges.

bailiff help please

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