Another boiler installation question

stellastar_2 · 1 October 2008 at 1:36PM

I've been reading around trying to get an idea of what to expect, but every example seems so different.

We live in a self-contained ground floor 1 bed flat and have an old baxi bermuda back bolier and unattractive 70's gas fire in the living room. The cold and hot water tanks are in the kitchen. there are radiators in the bedroom, living room, kitchen and hall. Everything wokrs fine but the boiler and fire are pretty old and I really wanted to replace the fire sowe had a guy come to give us a quote and explain that our only options were new boiler and new fire or a replacement baxi bermuda fire, which are all ugly and the only ok one is over £1000 for fire and installation.

I'd rather spend the money on a new boiler system and nice fire as I figure we'll save on energy bills and we plan on staying in the flat long term anyway.

The shower operates with a pump thing, which I read in another thread would mean only being able to get a certain type of boiler and keeping the hot water tanks so I'm unsure if that would be best, or just get a new shower installed along with the boiler and fire - I've no idea what the cost difference would be. And i think I'd rather get rid of the tank and have that space since the boiler will probably need to be installed in the kitchen.

Because the old boiler is built in I assume it will be more expensive as they'll need to get into it before removing it and if the new boiler needs a flue that will involve some building work - we live in a big old granite house with really think stone walls, I dont know if that makes things more difficult/expensive to install?

And I also wondered if there is an alternative, at the monent our heating and hot water is gas, do we need to keep it that way? Should we? Would removing the old stuff and installing an electric fire and boiler be a (sensible) option? I only wondered that after reading in a magazine about a Dimplex electric boiler that needs no flue - I assume installation would be cheaper but don tknow about running costs and efficiency.

any opinions and advice would be much appreciated!

We have a quote booked with BG and are arranging quotes with Scottish Hydro electric, NPower and some local companies too. As I'm clearly quite clueless about it all I'd like to get an idea of what to expect and what would be best for us, rather than for British gas!

Thanks in advance!

Canucklehead · 1 October 2008 at 8:13PM

Hi
This is the kind of job combi boilers were made for.Mains pressure hot water on demand and central heating all in one box.
Have a gas fire of your choice fitted in place of the old back boiler.
Personal choice would be Vaillant Ecotec or Viessmann 100/200.

Corgi Guy.

Razor · 1 October 2008 at 9:36PM

Hi, you won't get a new replacement fire for a 70's bermuda the new ones will not fit the old boilers, I would tend to agree assuming you have reasonable water pressure a combination boiler would be a good choice, you would not need the shower pump but the valve will probably be okay.

stellastar_2 · 2 October 2008 at 12:08PM

Canucklehead wrote: »

Hi
This is the kind of job combi boilers were made for.Mains pressure hot water on demand and central heating all in one box.
Have a gas fire of your choice fitted in place of the old back boiler.
Personal choice would be Vaillant Ecotec or Viessmann 100/200.

Corgi Guy.

Thank you! Does a combi boiler mean we would be getting rid of the hot water tanks? (could do with the space!) And would there be a need to replace pipes for that? The fireplace guy said the radiators and pipes looked fairly new (compared to the boiler and fire) and he would've thought they would be fine, but I've read that the difference in pressure can cause leaks?

Razor wrote: »

Hi, you won't get a new replacement fire for a 70's bermuda the new ones will not fit the old boilers, I would tend to agree assuming you have reasonable water pressure a combination boiler would be a good choice, you would not need the shower pump but the valve will probably be okay.

Cant say I'm too disappointed about the new fire fronts not fitting with the old boilers!
If the speed of water coming out the taps is an idicator of water pressure I'd say it's pretty good! (assuming fast is good

)
The bit about the shower, would that mean we could perhaps just have the pump removed but the rest of the shower could stay rather than having to replace it?

This is what we currently have
http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/0094975/Trail/searchtext>SHOWER.htm
with this
http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/0095819/Trail/searchtext>SHOWER.htm

It feels weird getting excited about a boiler!

EliteHeat · 2 October 2008 at 12:45PM

When a combi is fitted, the hot water cylinder is removed and your shower pump will also have to go.

The only water pressure that you need to verify is the rising main - that what comes out of your kitchen sink cold tap.

After the boiler is installed, this will be (more of less) the same pressure that comes out of all of your hot and cold outlets - including your shower minus the pump. So, if you are happy with this then go for a combi.

Existing pipework is rarely an issue but always be wary when it is buried in a concrete screed. The installer has no way of knowing if it was adequately protected and cannot assure the integrity of this, or any pipework - except his own.

The pre-requisites that all combination boilers need are a good incoming water pressure and flow rate, a correctly sized gas supply and ensuring that the system is properly cleansed either before or as part of, the installation process.

When choosing a boiler, match the boilers hot water performance with your expectations and requirements. Don't consider anything under 30kW if you are remotely interested in having a bath in the winter and don't be fooled into buying a cheap make that you've never heard of.

Vaillant, Worcesterr-Bosch, Glow Worm, Baxi, Potterton, Main, Ariston - all pretty good and range from high-end to mid-range. Avoid anything that B&Q sell - it might seem like a bargain but it won't be.

Anyone quoting should be checking the water, gas etc and asking questions about your particular lifestyle - well how it relates to heating and hot water anyway. If they don't, then show 'em the door.

stellastar_2 · 2 October 2008 at 1:05PM

Fantastic EliteHeat, thank you!

Hadn't thought about usage actually, we dont have a bath and my boyfriend cycles to/from work so only showers at home on weekends, we dont have a dishwasher and dont plan on getting one either. I had thought about B&Q but I wont now. And I'll be sure to get at least a second opinion on the actual boiler before deciding.

stellastar_2 · 3 October 2008 at 7:44AM

I've booked one of the local companies to come round for a quote on Monday - I'd already given them the background and she asked if a combi was what we were thinking of, asked how many radiators we have, how many bathrooms, if we had a bath and just generally about our hot water usage.
It'll be good to get a quote from a small company before BG come round next friday.

Plus the small company were really flexible about when they can come round and give you a half hour window unlike BG with their sometime after friday morning, but before friday night :rolleyes:

stellastar_2 · 7 October 2008 at 1:53PM

Have received the following quote

ESTIMATE:

Boiler Type. Viessmann 30KW A rated condensing combination boiler in kitchen with horizontal flue and extension through granite wall. Exact position for boiler to be determined on commencement of works when existing boiler can be taken off wall. Remove and dispose of existing boiler, hot water cylinder and cold water storage tanks. Remove shower pump. The flow rate of this boiler is 13 litres per minute. This boiler has a 5 year warranty. This boiler has a built in mechanical time clock an electronic time clock is an additional £ 30.
£ 2000

As above with Baxi 33KW A rated platinum boiler with a 5 year warranty. The flow rate is 13.8 litres per minute.
£ 2350

As above with Baxi Duotec 40KW A rated boiler with a two year warranty. The flow rate of this boiler is 16 litres per minute.
£ 2200

Prior to installation a cleansing chemical can be added to the system to aid flushing at the point of installation. The additional cost is £ 45.

To supply and install a new radiator depending on size and location would be £ 180 - £ 200.

To supply and install any replacement thermostatic radiator valves £ 22 each.

Prices are subject to vat @ 17.5%

Guy came round las tnight to have a look at the place/system and sent the following this morning.
Does this seem reasonable? i think I've explained the current set up in the first post in some detail. It's a backcoiler they'll be taking out.
The new radiator at £180-£200 is for the bathroom which currently has none - it's a really compact room, shower, sink, toilet only and hte location makes it really cold!
For the thermostatic radiator valves we only have 4 radiators to get those. I told the guy we weren't sure what we were doing about a fire and he said if we went for an electric one he would recommend getting a larger radiator installed in the living room - is that right? Our current fire has max output of 3kW and we'd prob replace with an electric one wiht max output of 2kW which will be plenty as the full power on the gas fire is too hot!

what about the actual boilers they have suggested?

Is it worth asking if they can supply another type if those arent the best choices? Is it worth finding out if I can provide replacement radiators myself, or boiler if appropriate?

Anything else I haven't thought of?

Also does anyone know roughly how accurate these sort of quotes should be expected to be? I dont want to end up getting the work done and find something was more difficult than expected and costs an extra grand once the work's already been done/started!

Canucklehead · 7 October 2008 at 2:19PM

Good afternoon: Is the Viessmann a Vitodens 100 or 200 (the latter is the superior combi)? Price looks okay...are there any 'conditions' in the quotation? If the RGI has done a complete site survey (tested mains water and gas supply, electrics etc) then there shouldn't be any major unforeseens but be aware flushing an old system can reveal weaknesses in the pipework/radiators and would incur costs in addition to the original figure.
The OH always powerflushes his installations and installs a Boiler Buddy and scale inhibitor (in hard water areas). Make sure the installation is notified to Building Control via CORGI and the RGI completes the Benchmark. As my OH said in his previous post, his preference is Vaillant or Viessmann.

HTH

Canucklehead

stellastar_2 · 7 October 2008 at 2:50PM

Canucklehead wrote: »

Good afternoon: Is the Viessmann a Vitodens 100 or 200 (the latter is the superior combi)? Price looks okay...are there any 'conditions' in the quotation? If the RGI has done a complete site survey (tested mains water and gas supply, electrics etc) then there shouldn't be any major unforeseens but be aware flushing an old system can reveal weaknesses in the pipework/radiators and would incur costs in addition to the original figure.
The OH always powerflushes his installations and installs a Boiler Buddy and scale inhibitor (in hard water areas). Make sure the installation is notified to Building Control via CORGI and the RGI completes the Benchmark. As my OH said in his previous post, his preference is Vaillant or Viessmann.

HTH

Canucklehead

Thanks, will ask for more detail on the actual boilers as I would like to know that anyway. I was going to ask them if they'd be able to do a more detailed survey prior to starting work to give us a better idea of cost (I would be happy to pay for it) as there were a couple of things he was unable to check (like me not having the key to the cellar for him to judge access to pipes).
There were no conditions mentioned and he did say that we would get some paperwork for the CORGI/building control...stuff (OH came home when the guy got to that bit and I switched off a bit...)
He said it would be two guys for one day and that we can check both their CORGI registrations.
Ther was no mention of a boiler buddy and we live in a soft water area so scale isn't an issue here.

Like I said we'll get another 2 quotes before deciding on anything. I'm quite happy with that price, I was expecting at least £1k more form what I'd read.

Canucklehead · 7 October 2008 at 5:46PM

Hi...did you receive a quote or an estimate?

If the RGI hasn't conducted a complete site survey then anticipate additional costs when you receive a quotation (e.g. upsizing gas supply, flueing and condensate waste requirements etc).He hasn't specified a location for the boiler...this should be determined as part of the quotation process...sounds like a quicky installation as you are converting to a sealed system and this takes time. I strongly recommend a powerflush as the system is probably filthy (old,open vented system) and manufacturers will require a clean system in order to validate the warranty.

HTH

Canucklehead

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