0870 and 0845 to be charged at geo rate!, but 0844+0871 stay premium, have your say

dc · 25 October 2005 at 12:11PM

Ofcom have finally come round to thinking 0870 and 0845 should be SAME price as geographic calls. But will allow 0844 and 0871 to still be charged at premium rates. So all those with 0870 and 0845 will migrate to these.

Offcom does not think this will happen :rolleyes:

Heres your chance to tell OFcom that this is no better than the current con.

I have told them that revenue based non-geo numbers should all be on 09 or another prefix like 03/4/5/6, rather than the 08 which is internationally the "freephone" prefix. And they seem to be listening.:beer:

Thanks to "Blondie"'s post http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=105507.

They read my email within 20 mins so get your views heard by the hard of hearing.

You have till the 6th DEC 2005.

dc

dc · 25 October 2005 at 12:25PM

released 28/09/05.......This booklet is a summary of our second consultation in our continuing look into Number Translation Services (NTS). Our first consultation took place in October 2004, when we suggested a number of possible ideas and asked for everyone's views on them. At that time, we heard back from a wide cross-section of private customers and businesses. With this feedback in mind, we're also suggesting how NTS might work in the future - and again, we'd like your views.

The idea behind this booklet is to give you a summary of our proposals. You'll find the full consultation document on our website at www.ofcom.org.uk . You can also see the first consultation

NTS calls
What is an NTS call? It's a call to a phone number that usually begins with 08 or 09. These numbers put you through to a range of entertainment and information services, including banks, various helplines, public and government services, and pay-as-you-go internet services.

These 08 and 09 numbers have no connection with any particular place, unlike 01 and 02 numbers which relate to particular parts of the UK (for example, an 02 number is in London). You'll find more information in annex A about how NTS and 'geographic' calls work.

When you call an NTS service, your call is received (the industry term is 'terminated') by a telecoms provider working for that service. So, when you pay your own phone company for the call, they pass on a share of that money to the telecoms provider, who in turn passes on a share to the company offering the service you wanted. This process is known as 'revenue sharing'.

Why we're reviewing how NTS is run
There have been two causes for concern that have led us to carry out this review. The first is about the business arrangements between the various phone companies and providers, and the companies who actually offer the services (the 'service providers'). The second concern was raised by ordinary phone customers, who were asking why NTS calls often cost more than calls to 01 and 02 numbers and why it was so difficult to find out how much these calls cost before making them.

The industry and NTS
Like any phone call, an NTS call can involve more than one phone network. You may be with one phone company, while the service provider you're calling is with another. If you're a BT customer, then BT is the 'originating provider' or 'call originator' of your NTS call. The network who hosts that NTS service is the 'terminating provider' or 'call terminator'. Your call ends with them.

When a BT customer makes an NTS call, the current rules mean that BT must pass on most of the price of the call to the terminating provider. In fact, BT is only allowed to keep enough to cover its costs while any profits go to the terminating provider. But, if you make a geographic call (any call to numbers beginning 01 or 02), BT gets the profits and the terminating provider only gets enough to cover its costs.

The telecoms industry has raised some concerns about how these rules work.

The terminating providers say that although they may receive the profit from NTS calls, they have little say in how much that profit is, or how much will be available for handing over to NTS service providers. From time to time BT reviews its charges, and this can mean that the terminating providers end up being paid less. In turn, this uncertainty about how much they'll earn affects the companies providing the NTS services, and there have already been several disputes.
There are different rules on how the money earned for connecting 0844 and 0871 calls is shared compared to 0845 and 0870 calls. The industry would like these differences to be cleared up.
Pay-as-you-go internet services
As well as these concerns, there's a question over the future of pay-as-you-go (PAYG) internet services that use 0845 numbers. Internet service providers (ISPs) offer customers a wide range of these services, and more than five million people in the UK use them. They're perfect for people who don't use the internet very often, and who don't worry too much about high broadband speeds. However, in 2003 BT lowered its retail prices for 0845 calls, and with new discount packages on top, BT is now paying less to the terminating providers. The result is that ISPs may see their profits fall so much that it won't be worth them continuing to use an 0845 number for this valuable service.

One possible answer is that the ISPs move their services to a different NTS number, such as 0844, where BT can't change the amount it pays to the terminating providers. However, this solution may not be as good as it looks. The 0845 numbers of those ISPs are already stored in millions of customers' computers. Changing them would not be easy, and they would risk losing a lot of business. That's why ISPs are keen to hang on to their 0845 numbers, at least until those customers move on to faster broadband internet services.

Customers and NTS
We received over 100 responses to our first NTS consultation, published last October. These responses led us to carry out further market research to find out just how worried customers were about NTS calls. We also asked them what they thought about our ideas to tackle their concerns.

Overall, we identified a number of problems that needed attention, including the following.

Few people seem to know what it costs to call 084 and 087 numbers, and most people think the calls are more expensive than they really are.
Some customers think that terminating providers should stop sharing the money they earn through 08 numbers with the companies that provide the services. People think they can be overcharged, particularly when they call public and essential services, or after-sales support lines.
There's a growing trend for companies to use more expensive 0870 numbers, instead of their 01 or 02 geographic numbers.
There are worries that people can be misled by advertising that describes calls to 0845 numbers as 'local rate', and 0870 numbers as 'national rate'. These descriptions suggest the numbers are being charged at geographic call rates, when in fact they are more expensive because most of them do not qualify for discounts.
Some customers believe that call centres using NTS numbers deliberately keep people hanging on so they can earn more from the calls.
There are concerns that more adult services are now being offered on 0870 and 0871 numbers, and that these numbers are more difficult to bar from children.
There are fears about fraud with pay-as-you-go internet connections. A customer's computer can be 'hijacked' into dialling more expensive 087 numbers, without them knowing.
Ofcom's proposed approach for NTS
Our first consultation

In our first consultation, we suggested five possible approaches for the future of NTS. These ranged from leaving things as they are, right through to banning revenue sharing altogether on all 08 and 09 numbers. Our own preferred approach was to open up 0845 and 0870 numbers to price competition by letting service providers charge what they want, up to a maximum of 4p a minute for 0845 numbers and 8p a minute for 0870 numbers. However, neither the industry nor its customers agreed with us.

We needed to decide whether the whole idea of companies sharing money from calls could be a bad deal for customers. From our research, we found that most people had no problem with the basic idea of paying for NTS services through the cost of their calls. In fact, many people thought that most NTS calls were reasonable value for money. There were concerns, however, about using NTS numbers for public services, and we have raised these concerns with the various public and government agencies. As a result, the Government's advisory body, the Central Office of Information, has announced that 087 numbers should not be used for public services.

Now that we've considered the views of customers, the industry and the NTS ur first ideas, we want everyone to have the chance to give us their feedback again. Please give us your views.service providers in more detail, we have decided to change our approach. Our new proposals are set out below and, because they're quite different from before

1st part

dc · 25 October 2005 at 12:27PM

2nd and most important part of Ofcom booklet:-

What changes are we proposing?
Under our new approach, NTS would change in the following ways.

Cheaper 0870 calls. The main concern from customers is the growing number of service providers who are using 0870 numbers and the high costs of calling them. So, we are proposing that after the first year, calls to 0870 numbers should be charged at the same rate as a call to a geographic number. This change would mean that most calls to 0870 numbers would become cheaper.

In that first year, prices of 0870 numbers would be capped at their current price, and calls should no longer be advertised as being charged at 'national rate'. This is to avoid any confusion that these calls cost the same as geographic calls.

A possible end to revenue sharing on 0870 calls. By lowering the cost of calls to 0870 after the first year, it should mean there would be very little money to share between the phone companies and NTS service providers. We also propose to stop supporting revenue sharing on 0870 numbers. These proposals would be likely to put an end to revenue sharing on 0870 calls.

Classify 0871 as premium rate. We are also proposing that 0871 numbers should be brought within the current regulatory framework that exists for premium-rate services (PRS) operating on 09 numbers. This would mean that services using 0871 numbers would have to follow the same rules as those using 09 numbers. This would increase the level of consumer protection, including the need for call prices to be displayed on adverts for services using 0871 numbers. We are also asking whether all adult services should come under PRS regulation, whatever their cost, and we want your views on whether these services should only be allowed to use '09' numbers. Otherwise, there would be no changes to the prices of 0871 calls and revenue sharing would be allowed to continue on these numbers.

Review revenue sharing on 0845 in the future. Since 0845 numbers are so popular for pay-as-you-go (PAYG) internet access, we propose to allow revenue sharing to continue on these numbers for at least another two years. By then, we'll know whether broadband internet services mean that there's little demand for PAYG. If so, we may suggest that 0845 calls are charged at geographic prices, as is proposed for 0870 calls. Meanwhile, 0845 calls would be capped at their current price, and calls should no longer be advertised as being 'local rate'. Again, we want to remove any confusion that these calls cost the same as geographic calls.

No change on 0844. Calls to 0844 cost no more than 5p a minute, and we think the rules should stay as they are. The risk of customers being overcharged is lower than with 087 numbers. Also, if we took away revenue sharing altogether, many popular services would disappear. We will be keeping an eye on 0844 calls, however, and if we see any problems developing, we would consider extending the PRS rules to cover these numbers too.

A gradual change. Because these proposals would mean big changes for everyone involved in NTS, introducing them too quickly could harm businesses that rely on income from phone calls. So, we have proposed a 12-month delay before any changes are made to 0870 numbers. This would give companies that rely on revenue sharing the time to move their services to 0844 or 0871 numbers.

Announcements at the start of each call. After 12 months, originating providers would need to lower the price of 0870 calls and charge their national geographic call price. Or, if they decided to charge more than this, they would have to announce the actual price at the start of each call, before the call was connected.

Public organisations. We don't want to force any organisation to use a particular type of number. However, we have suggested that NTS numbers may not be suitable for use by public organisations. This is particularly true for organisations who serve people on low incomes. So, when public organisations choose NTS numbers, they should get advice from the Government's Central Office of Information.

Improved consumer information about call prices. As a separate exercise, we are looking again at the rules on how originating providers show their prices for NTS calls. Many of them have different prices to BT's prices, and we believe they should make their costs to 08 and 09 numbers much clearer on price lists, in advertising and on their websites. This rule will be the same for all, including the mobile networks.

What difference will these changes make?

You might think that these proposals will simply shift any problems with 0845 and 0870 numbers to 0844 and 0871 numbers instead. We don't think this will happen.

In our research, quite a number of service providers told us that what they really wanted was non-geographic 0845 and 0870 numbers because this would be worth more to them than any share of revenue they might earn. In fact, many said they don't receive a share at all, or that they could finance their service in some other way. It's also difficult and costly to change numbers, and many have numbers that their customers have stored on their computers. For these reasons, we think that many of these services will stay with 0845 and 0870 numbers, but at a lower cost to customers.

However, if a service relies on revenue sharing, it would be able to move to 0844 or 0871 numbers. Without this option, some services may simply disappear - and that wouldn't help anyone.

At Ofcom, we believe these new proposals go a long way to answering the concerns we picked up from customers and the industry. Even so, we need your views before we can make any changes. You'll find our contact details in the next section of this booklet, together with the deadline for your comments. We are also very interested in your views on two particular questions, which are in the next section. For more background, you can see the full consultation document on our website at www.ofcom.org.uk

Consultation questions

We'd like you to answer the following questions that relate to the information in this booklet. We've taken them from annex 3 of the full NTS consultation document, which you can see - along with other questions we're asking - on our website.

Question 1: Do you agree with our proposal that revenue sharing should no longer be allowed on 0870 calls if the link between 0870 call prices and prices for 01 and 02 geographic calls is restored?

Question 4: What do you think of our proposal to extend the rules controlling premium-rate services using 09 numbers to include 0871 numbers?

Question 5: Do you agree we should insist that any adult entertainment services using 08 numbers have to move to the 09 numbers set aside for this type of content?

Question 7: Do you agree that the package of measures we propose to introduce will tackle most of the problems with Number Translation Services? If not, what else do you think we could do and why?

How to contact us

Our actions will affect many people and organisations across the UK, so it is very important that we make our decisions at the right time and in the right way. This summary booklet aims to give you the chance to have your say.

We published this consultation on 28 September 2005 and the deadline for your responses is 6 December 2005. You can see a copy of the full consultation document at www.ofcom.org.uk, and read the background on the issues we have mentioned in this booklet.

You can post or fax your comments, marked 'NTS consultation', to:

Clive Hillier

Competition and Markets

Fourth Floor

Ofcom

Riverside House

2A Southwark Bridge Road

London SE1 9HA.

Fax: 020 7783 4103

Or, you can e-mail your comments to: [email="nts@ofcom.org.uk"]nts@ofcom.org.uk[/email]

Please note that if you contact us by e-mail, you do not need to send us a hard copy. We do not usually acknowledge receipt of your comments.

Any general comments?

If you have any comments on how we carry out our consultations or suggestions on how we can improve them, please call our consultation helpdesk on 020 7981 3003 or e-mail us at: [email="consult@ofcom.org.uk"]consult@ofcom.org.uk[/email]. We're particularly keen for ideas on how we can get the views of small businesses, private individuals and special interest groups as these are the kinds of people who are unlikely to hear about a formal industry consultation.

If you would like to discuss these issues, or our consultation processes in general, you can also contact:

Tony Stoller

Director - External Relations

Ofcom

Riverside House

2A Southwark Bridge Road

London SE1 9HA.

Phone: 020 7981 3550

Fax: 020 7981 3333

E-mail: [email="tony.stoller@ofcom.org.uk"]tony.stoller@ofcom.org.uk[/email] Edited to fit

bbb_uk · 27 October 2005 at 9:05AM

Some things to note:-

0845 - isn't being touched. They plan on reviewing that in two years time with yet another consultation.

0870 - Initially this sounds ok but they are not forcing any teleco to reduce the costs of 0870 back down to geographical rates so therefore you may find that only BT reduce the costs of 0870 but Telewest/NTL, etc may want to keep their 0870 as it is, or no one reduces the costs of 0870 at all. This will obviously add to the confusion of some providers charging geographical rates for 0870 and some not. Not to mention that 0845 could actually be more expensive than 0870 then.

As you say they plan on leaving 0844/0871 as they are with revenue sharing in place.

Some companies will no doubt move to 0844 because if they make 0871 classed as a premium rate call then they can't keep us customers queuing and paying for the call whilst queuing as this is not allowed under premium rate rules. Therefore to avoid this loss of revenue they'll probably goto a 0844 that costs 5ppm all the time similar as some doctor's surgeries have done and continue charging us for holding in a queue for over 20+ minutes some times.

MORPH3US · 27 October 2005 at 9:10AM

dc wrote:

Ofcom have finally come round to thinking 0870 and 0845 should be SAME price as geographic calls. But will allow 0844 and 0871 to still be charged at premium rates. So all those with 0870 and 0845 will migrate to these.

Offcom does not think this will happen :rolleyes:

Heres your chance to tell OFcom that this is no better than the current con.

I have told them that revenue based non-geo numbers should all be on 09 or another prefix like 03/4/5/6, rather than the 08 which is internationally the "freephone" prefix. And they seem to be listening.:beer:

Thanks to "Blondie"'s post http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=105507.

They read my email within 20 mins so get your views heard by the hard of hearing.
You have till the 6th DEC 2005.

dc

You say that by making 0870 numbers the same price as geographic numbers that everyone will change over to 0844 etc instead, but if you make people use 09 numbers then they will all just change over to those instead. Whats the point? At the end of the day, I always check the small print that says "calls cost £100 per minute" etc and then make my own choice. Whether its an 01 number or and 09 number makes no difference.

That said, I think it is an absoloute outrage that companies use premium / national rate numbers for customer services!!!

M

bunking_off · 27 October 2005 at 2:20PM

bbb_uk wrote:

0870 - Initially this sounds ok but they are not forcing any teleco to reduce the costs of 0870 back down to geographical rates so therefore you may find that only BT reduce the costs of 0870 but Telewest/NTL, etc may want to keep their 0870 as it is, or no one reduces the costs of 0870 at all. This will obviously add to the confusion of some providers charging geographical rates for 0870 and some not. Not to mention that 0845 could actually be more expensive than 0870 then.

They can't force anyone who isn't designated as having significant market power to tariff any service at a particular rate. ie, they can only force BT and Kingston. This is entirely correct...the principal function of the regulator is to act as a proxy for competition and to stop dominant players exploiting that dominance. As such, they regulate BT's prices because in absence of it, BT could hike their prices and most of the population wouldn't notice, let alone move to an alternate provider. They can't regulate pricing on non-dominant players any more than it would be correct for the authorities to regulate how much your local shop charged for a can of pop...don't like the price, buy the pop elsewhere; don't like what Telewest are charging you, move to another provider.

For BT and Kingston, what they are regulating is that calls should either be charged at geographic rates, or there should be an announcement telling the caller how much the call will cost. Now, the terminating operator can't provide that announcement, because they don't know what price plan the caller is on. So, the announcement could only be provided by the originating operator. What incentive will there be on BT to provide an announcement, in order that some terminating operator can continue revenue share arrangements to keep their customers happy? Answer: none. As such, it's a rather neat way of pushing the pricing down to geographic levels.

Of course, once BT do that, because they're dominant, the other networks like Telewest etc will be driven by market forces to drop to at least similar rates.

The next step would almost certainly be an exodus to 0844. One wonders what's actually been gained by the exercise, then, other than a lot of business for stationery suppliers/signwriters.

dc · 27 October 2005 at 2:27PM

I have also emailed them with my thoughts on 0844 numbers being used in call queueing system by doctors surgeries, as mine does, with minute long pre amble on where you have called. ( as if you didnt know ) :mad: . Some marketing firm has been doing a sterling job, my surgery is not concerned that this is a further "Tax on the Sick", so that GBrown can keep more money in his pocket.

dc

bunking_off · 27 October 2005 at 5:25PM

The thing is dc I completely agree with you that doctors should not be doing that. However, where we differ is probably around whose responsibility it is to stop it.

In my view, 08 numbers are something which companies/organisations choose to use, and the way to voice dis-satisfaction with ones making excessive charges/taking excessive time to answer is to vote with one's feet. That's fine with e.g. banks, but clearly you can't exactly do that with doctors. In my view it should be Government laying down the law with all its departments, including the NHS, as to when usage of these numbers is acceptable/unacceptable.

Ofcom aren't there to regulate how monopoly organisations use the phone service - they're there to regulate the provision of the phone service by the telecoms providers. By all means, we can change that to make them a watchdog on government departments, but to do so would need the Comms Act to be revised.

bbb_uk · 2 November 2005 at 11:08AM

bunking_off wrote:

The next step would almost certainly be an exodus to 0844. One wonders what's actually been gained by the exercise, then, other than a lot of business for stationery suppliers/signwriters.

I agree. These companies/gov departments that are in it for the revenue will migrate to 0844 (most likely the ones costing 5ppm all the time). At least on 0870 numbers you can call at the weekend (if they're open) for only a few pence.

If call queuing was prohibited on these numbers then we wouldn't have to pay that much and would only pay once we got to speak with a human being instead of being on hold for 20mins+ (from some companies) so they can earn revenue keeping us on hold. In my experience it's the call queuing that lasts the longest rather than the time you are speaking with a human itself.

dc · 2 November 2005 at 12:22PM

Surely it should be within their remit to regulate these premium rate numbers, they are THE telcoms regulator.

It is a little difficult to change a supplier/bank when most do it? They take little note of complaints when they would be killing what they have discovered to be a cash cow. Most people are unaware of the cost, and education is a slow process. Maybe call cost announcements is an answer? sadly that increases the time of the call.

It has taken Ofcom 5+ years to realise there is a problem. In the past they have said it was a service to users to provide these numbers.
They even refused to acknowledge that 0845 were being mis-named, their response was that "these are lo-call numbers NOT local" and it was nothing to do with them.

There is one glimmer of hope in that BBC Watchdog has just changed its number to a London 0208... number from 0870

PS further to my email having been notified as read, this morning I received a thank you email.:beer:

2ax · 2 November 2005 at 1:53PM

bbb_uk wrote:

If call queuing was prohibited on these numbers then we wouldn't have to pay that much and would only pay once we got to speak with a human being instead of being on hold for 20mins+ (from some companies) so they can earn revenue keeping us on hold.

That is actually the best suggestion of the lot.

It would (or should :rolleyes: ) cause a complete mental review of managing the cynically marginal staffing levels that these places have been pared back to, and the provision of 0800 numbers with faster answering only for prospective new customers.

But many of these companies manage to turn a blind eye. 3 years ago I had an argument with a manager in a call centre who told me they had never ever had someone on hold for over 30 minutes. I asked her to review the actions her colleague had done for me, and estimate how long it would take; and I would send a copy of the phone bill to show 3-5 minutes work needed a 44 minute call. She refused to give me the address.

Why did Ofcom never manage to do something a bit like ...

0800 free
0811 1p/min
0821 2p/min

0841 4p/min
0845 'local rate'
0875 'national rate'

0900 10p/min
0915 15p/min
etc

Probably because they mis-managed the introduction of new numbers - 0870 and 0845 were introduced before mobile phone numbers beginning with 08 were changed, so they were worried that it would cause temporary confusion ...

... it has become permanent.

But they still could gradually migrate some numbers to give a better cost indication, by using 081, 082 etc - other countries have managed to use them exactly like this

0870 and 0845 to be charged at geo rate!, but 0844+0871 stay premium, have your say

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