0870 and 0845 to be charged at geo rate!, but 0844+0871 stay premium, have your say

bbb_uk

Hi All,

I've just noticed that Saynoto0870 have setup a special webpages for those wanting more information and in making a response to the Ofcom's consultation on 084x/087x numbers and the revenue sharing/cost of these calls.

More information here:

https://www.saynoto0870.com/consultation

Micky

Advertisers should be forced to post geo numbers as an alternative to 0870/0845/0844/08paythrothenose numbers. Problem solved.

I always search for alternative geo numbers and on the rare occasions that I have to use 08paythrothenose numbers I always whinge to whoever takes the call.

gdh82

Ofcom try to justify the higher cost of 0870/0845 etc by saying they are for value added services!!!!! How can that be ? It makes sense for dial-up internet access and for fax services but not when you want to report that your washing machine has broken down!!! (How much do mastercare make, I wonder?)

I reckon ofcom should scrap revenue sharing from non geo numbers and make them the same price as regular numbers. Consumers would be happy and business still get to keep their precious 0870 number for when they change premises!! If businesses want to make money from us calling them then they should use the 09 premium rate numbers, where at least there's restrictions on queuing etc

But have you heard the cries from some members the business communty - read the following taken from trade press...

0870 Meltdown Predicted 07/11/05
Earning revenue on 0870 numbers is likely to cease next year as a result of an Ofcom shake-up of number translation services. If you’re an 0870 user, not only do you stand to lose this revenue stream, it’s widely anticipated that rental charges will be introduced enabling service providers to recoup some of their lost revenue. It is also likely that 0871 numbers will be re-classified as premium rate numbers at the same time.

Jacqui Brookes, CEO, Federation of Communication Services (FCS) told Comms Business Magazine that she has advised her members of the impending changes.

“Presently, Ofcom is consulting on changes to the number ranges 087 and 084. Among the proposals is to revert the cost of calling a 0870 number to the relevant national call rate. Many British businesses value the use of 0870 numbers because the number can be retained when the company moves premises. In addition businesses can generate income by a revenue share with their telecoms supplier each time a call to the 0870 number is made.

This and several other proposals for changing the management and regulation of “non-geographic numbers” are contained within the consultation document “Number Translation Services: A way forward” which can be found at https://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward.”

Matthew Sime, Director of Bury based NGN supplier Business Communications told Comms Business Magazine, “This is a very serious situation for companies like ourselves and our customers who have come to rely on the shared income from 0870 numbers. It is likely that many of these companies will go out of business or face serious financial difficulties.” “There have been many complaints against 0870 numbers from people calling government departmental help lines which has raised the issue of shared revenues on to the Ofcom radar. We believe the changes are likely to be 18 months away and that discussions are still under way. It is possible that only Government bodies will be forced to change but wholesale change will affect hundreds, if not thousands of business’ in the UK.”

In the UK many companies have 0870 numbers as their main line. Number changes will cause them additional cost through having to change stationary and other materials bearing those numbers.

So I'm sure big business will be having a word in the ear of Ofcom. All we can do is encourage as many people as possible to make sure they have their say too...

Have you had your say yet?

2ax

It might be tricky for that company, but it might affect his customers rather less than his hyperbolic reaction suggests. What proportion of an ordinary business' expenses is its phone bill? The biggest companies in the country are going broke?

bbb_uk

2ax wrote:

...The biggest companies in the country are going broke?

That is true. Thing to remember is that revenue sharing is still possible on 09x numbers where us consumers are protected better because things like being charged for being held in a queue is not allowed. That is why these premium rate rules were introduced.

Why can't these companies use these numbers instead? Could they not use premium rate numbers costing around the same as 0870 now? Main reason I suspect is that they then couldn't advertise their number as 'national rate' (misleading now) anymore and they could specifically be using 087x/084x because they know most consumers aren't aware that the company called is gaining a revenue for each minute you are on the call (including holding/call queuing). Ofcom's investigation found this out.

A premium rate number though most consumers recognise that the company receives a revenue hence the reason why 084/087 numbers can be classed as stealth premium rate numbers.

Those using 087x (and 084x) can/are gaining revenue but without the consumer protection (which is obviously there for our protection) that is imposed upon them under 09x premium rate rules.

I personally can't see the justification for this value-added service us consumers are meant to be getting. For example, Sky have been using 0870 numbers as far back as I can remember and they are announcing huge profits and can even afford to buy some companies out but yet each year they increase their subscription rates. They've been doing this for years, and years.

The end game is to maximise their profits as much as possible so how is that a value-added service? I know companies are in business to make a profit and that doesn't bother me but its how much profit they make that I find annoying sometimes. Those companies making 100s of millions if not more that still use these so-called value added services.

bunking_off

bbb_uk wrote:

I personally can't see the justification for this value-added service us consumers are meant to be getting. For example, Sky have been using 0870 numbers as far back as I can remember and they are announcing huge profits and can even afford to buy some companies out but yet each year they increase their subscription rates. They've been doing this for years, and years.

bbb, it's a question of value add to who (or should that be whom, English grammar isn't my strong point...).

The "value add" component is in many cases to the customer of the number (Sky etc) rather than necessarily to the caller. The value add component is Intelligent Network interaction, ie proportional call distribution, CLI based call handling, IVR provided by the network, divert on busy, time of day routing etc etc. The plans adopted by a typical corporate customer need flowcharts spanning pages and pages for all the call cases that can occur. There are some 08 numbers that don't actively use such features (probably majority by number of numbers, but <10% in terms of traffic volume), but I guess the "value add" in these cases could be argued to be that the number's portable, ie you don't need a new number if you relocate.

Like you say, the "value add" to callers could be considered to be limited. I'm sure the likes of Sky would argue that the value add is that your call is more likely to be answered when otherwise it would hit busy tone. I'm not going to get into that debate...

Not trying to justify usage of 08, just explaining how the term "value add" came about...

bbb_uk

bunking_off wrote:

Like you say, the "value add" to callers could be considered to be limited. I'm sure the likes of Sky would argue that the value add is that your call is more likely to be answered when otherwise it would hit busy tone.

No discussions I promise! I agree there are legitimate reasons for having NGN's but most companies these days generally, as you say, don't take advantage of this and only have their 0870 translate to one geographical.

According to the Goverments' Central Office of Information (COI), these features are available via geographical numbers as well (depending on how old their telephony equipment is).

As for number portability these can be valid reasons as well but I doubt that Sky (in this example anyhow) are going to move their call centres outside their current area so that they couldn't take their geographical with them. The cost of relocating a whole call centre is probably too much for most companies to even consider.

Of course these features are still available on 09x premium rate numbers where us consumers are better protected, and more importingly, we don't pay for being held in a queue for over 20+mins as reported in a newspaper (can't remember which newspaper it was).

If Ofcom do stop the revenue sharing on 0870 then we'll see how many companies have specifically used these numbers for their features as opposed to the revenue they get in return. Any company moving to 0844 (probably at 5ppm all the time) are obviously in it for the money and not the features these numbers provide.

bunking_off

bbb_uk wrote:

No discussions I promise! I agree there are legitimate reasons for having NGN's but most companies these days generally, as you say, don't take advantage of this and only have their 0870 translate to one geographical.

Oh no, this is perilously near to a debate. Once again, by volume of numbers you're undoubtedly correct. However, telecoms is very much an 80/20 (really, more 95/5) activity...20% of numbers generate 80% of the traffic.

By actual minutes of traffic volume, most 08 numbers do considerably more than a simple translation to a static single geographic number. For example, it's a very rare advertising campaign that will lead to all ITV regions hitting the same call centre - they're normally distributed according to origin.

In saying this, I concede that the company I work for (which you'll understand that I won't reveal the identity of) deals with the "large" end of the market, so my views may be flavoured by experience of our client base.

Heinz

bunking_off wrote:

.... most 08 numbers do considerably more than a simple translation to a static single geographic number. For example, it's a very rare advertising campaign that will lead to all ITV regions hitting the same call centre - they're normally distributed according to origin.

But, from a purely technical point of view, there's nothing preventing that being done on an 01 or 02 number these days.

In other words, the use of 084/087 numbers for such purposes = a money-making scam.

bunking_off

Heinz wrote:

But, from a purely technical point of view, there's nothing preventing that being done on an 01 or 02 number these days.

From a purely technical point of view, yes. We do indeed provide such services on geographic numbers. I would highlight however, as I've done in the past, that on geo numbers the services are inherently less resilient and less able to handle mass calling events. But yes, you're correct, such call handling can be done on geo numbers.

From a commercial perspective, it's not so easy (or at least not at terms acceptable to most call recipients). To have such call handling facilities, the recipient of the call has to pay as there isn't enough revenue from a call to a geo number to cover the costs of providing intelligent network facilities (even at BT retail rates, and certainly not at e.g. 18866 rates). That's why the take up on our geo service is relatively low - if recipients are willing to pay, they tend to go the whole hog and use 0800.