Home » Forums

[MSE Lawrence]

Poll between 3 - 9 Feb 2009:

Should we trade with China?

Premier Wen Jiabao of China, the world's latest economic giant, is in the UK talking to Gordon Brown about strengthening trade. Yet everywhere he goes, there are protests about human rights issues.

Which of these is closest to your view?

A. Strengthen Trade. We're in recession, take every drop of trade regardless. 37% (2054 votes)

B. Keep it as is. Every country has human rights abuses of one kind or another. 20% (1083 votes)

C. Weaken trade. Keep it to a bare minimum, no more than necessary. 18% (999 votes)

D. No Trade. Until human rights abuses stop, we shouldn't trade. 25% (1350 votes)

Voting has now ended, but you can still click 'post reply' to discuss below. Thanks

Enter e-mail to get it:   View Past Emails, FAQ Privacy Policy

[guidel]

It's a shame people voting Strengthen Trade only think about their own country and themselves.....Selfish..:naught y:..If only you could put yourself in their position, you'll be sick to think that some people would rather be influenced by the financial aspect of their life rather than .....HUMAN RIGHTS. My own view, nothing else

[m00head]

Hold on, isn't this happening right here in Britain too?

Primark linked to UK sweatshops
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7824291.stm

Primark slaves in Manchester
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/article123365.ece

[southernscouser]

Originally Posted by MSE Lawrence

Should we trade with China?

I prefer porcelain myself.

[bo drinker]

Keep to a minimum I say. We need to make things again and sharpish. Plus the human rights, they can not be trusted. Simple as.

[teddyco]

For the past two decades we have watched the 'Kings of the East' swallow almost every British job we have. Companies that have been around for three hundred years are at the point of closing their doors even after moving operations to China.

Most of Staffordshire pottery is almost gone, British steel is a distant memory and now the Chinese own Rover/MG, and we cheer to give them more?

I am getting sick and tired of going into Marks and Sparks and seeing every last stitch of clothing, shoes or housewares with 'made in china' plastered all over it.
To make matters worse, many of the stitching falls to pieces after one wash, soles on ladies shoes are cheap, cheap, cheap and require a re-sole after several months of wear, and strange chemicals in chocolate and children's toys are now cropping up.

I am sick to the back teeth of Indian/South African call center's and staff that don't speak English and am delighted when I actually get a person who speaks English and can understand my problem on the phone.

I think it's time that we shut the doors on Chinese trade until they get their act together while our government does something to fight for the protection of British jobs in THIS country.

Gordon Brown made the statement 'British jobs for British workers', but has continued to shake hands with companies who shift the majority of their operations overseas and I am ready to see this rascal GONE!

I would rather pay £10 more for a shirt of £15 more for a pair of shoes and do with fewer possessions knowing that industry, craftsmanship and jobs in this country were being protected for the betterment of British workers and their families.

[stufai]

Originally Posted by m00head

Hold on, isn't this happening right here in Britain too?

Primark linked to UK sweatshops
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7824291.stm

Primark slaves in Manchester
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/article123365.ece

Every country has problems but it doesn't mean that we can condone human rights abuse in another country, especially on a much larger scale.

[thebarefootchef]

What an idiotic poll.

Where do you think almost everything comes from?

[oldagetraveller]

What a pity that when profit/greed takes over, human rights go right out of the window.
I'm amazed that people are voting to strengthen trade with this oppressive regime, you should hang your heads in shame. If you don't think they're oppressive, ask the people of Tibet who've been under their control for 50+ years!
And no, I'm not usually a tree hugging yoghurt knitting eco nazi either.

[MakeitgoRIGHT]

It is not a case of shall we buy Chinese goods? All those Chinese imports (clothes, electronics et al) have been imported from china and are sitting in our houses. We have to pay China for them. Our Chinese credit card is max'ed out and China wants payment.

So before all the politically correct humanitarians get on their tall horses, take a look at this country's balance of payments with the world -- we have the worst debt in the whole world save only one other country (USA), and are way ahead of the country in 3rd place. That is a mega flap for any country (Ta, Gordon).

[mcgazz]

Trade between the UK and China is not one-way. We sell them financial services (insert your own joke here), environmental technology and luxury and sporting goods. They also reprocess a lot of our domestic refuse. Cutting all ties with China would destroy UK jobs, lead to more rubbish processing (or even landfill) here, as well as leading to much higher prices and much less choice in things like clothes/shoes, toys, and consumer electronics. It's one thing to make high-minded statements on an internet messageboard, another to suffer a hefty drop in one's living standards.

Also, what country has a perfect human rights record? Are you going to boycott pretty much all of Africa, Central America, the Middle East, South Asia, Russia, a fair bit of Eastern Europe, and the USA (torture, tasers and Guantanamo Bay, anyone)? And what about the Western corporations involved in these human rights abuses (eg Coca Cola's murder of trade unionists in South America)? Will you boycott them as well? What countries are legit, here? As an example, OTOH, even uber-right-on Scandinavia isn't perfect - Norway's whale hunting, Sweden's harsh treatment of teenage anti-capitalist protesters and former programme of sterilising women with learning difficulties, the marginalisation of the Saami (Laplanders) in both countries, and religious intolerance in Denmark.

You'd still be a hypocrite, anyway - Britain's human rights record isn't that hot, either. We've got people interned without trial, freedom of speech is restricted, we've got more CCTV per head of population than any other country in the world, MPs' confidentiality isn't respected, and it's not that long ago that we were doing similar things in Northern Ireland and several former colonies to what China are alleged to be doing in Tibet now. I'm no fan of the Bible, but I think "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" is a cracking line.

If you want China's human rights record to change, the best way is to engage them on the issue, not throw a strop, engage in some hypocritical and unsustainable boycott and spend your free time hunting down Romanian-made jeans and Turkish shoes, while your children complain that they're bored with Lego being their only toy (you will, of course, have junked your TV/DVD/PSP/hi-fi because they will almost certainly contain Chinese-made components, even if they were largely assembled elsewhere).

[alexjohnson]

Originally Posted by guidel

It's a shame people voting Strengthen Trade only think about their own country and themselves.....Selfish..:naught y:..If only you could put yourself in their position, you'll be sick to think that some people would rather be influenced by the financial aspect of their life rather than .....HUMAN RIGHTS. My own view, nothing else

1. How do you think the condition of Chinese workers would be improved by stopping trade? If that were to happen, would the closure of their factories due to a collapse in demand for their exports a) improve their lives, or b) worsen them? Would you expect them to thank you?

2. Fact: China has lifted more people out of poverty at a faster rate than any other society in human history, both in percentage terms and in absolute numbers. This has not always been a pretty process and I sweep nothing under the carpet but if you care about human rights, this should amaze and delight you as they have done far more than any amount of well-intentioned charitable giving. In what way would stopping this process help those people?

3. Many factory jobs in China have many, many more applicants for each job than jobs to give them. The bad part of this is, of course, those workers can be exploited because they are so easy to replace. No one thinks that is good or nice. But let's take a second to think about the alternative. These people are not stupid. By definition, whatever the "other choice" is must be worse, right? That's simple logic. By not trading because we want to protest at this exploitation, what happens? Do they sit round a camp fire singing kumbaya and agree to be nice to each other? Or do they close the factory and put everyone back into whatever the "even worse" situation was? (In many cases that is subsistence farming in back-breaking paddy fields.) So what's the solution? Lots of things: yes, protests. Yes, Nike campaigns, and companies' setting standards: I am not some kind of free market zealot. But also yes, having faith that the Chinese are not idiots and don't need us to tell them how they should live: they know, and conditions are improving all the time. It's what happened here after all.

4. As a result of globalisation, "stuff" is now much cheaper for all of us: look at the £250 TV in this week's newsletter. This disproportionately benefits the poor (because shopping takes up much more of their income than it does for the rich, who can save more, have more leisure, holidays etc.). There is an ethical and environmental concern about this which is valid, but the question is HUMAN RIGHTS. I don't see how making poor people pay more for stuff helps them. I can't see how they will thank you. I can't see in whose interest this is, except of course the people making the more expensive stuff in the UK.

You should read Tim Harford's "The Undercover Economist" (there was a BBC2 series of it) for an easy-to-read explanation. I would urge especially those most concerned about the negatives of globalisation to read it.

[mcgazz]

Originally Posted by oldagetraveller

What a pity that when profit/greed takes over, human rights go right out of the window.
I'm amazed that people are voting to strengthen trade with this oppressive regime, you should hang your heads in shame. If you don't think they're oppressive, ask the people of Tibet who've been under their control for 50+ years!
And no, I'm not usually a tree hugging yoghurt knitting eco nazi either.

Where do you buy from, then?

[alexjohnson]

Originally Posted by oldagetraveller

What a pity that when profit/greed takes over, human rights go right out of the window.
I'm amazed that people are voting to strengthen trade with this oppressive regime, you should hang your heads in shame. If you don't think they're oppressive, ask the people of Tibet who've been under their control for 50+ years!
And no, I'm not usually a tree hugging yoghurt knitting eco nazi either.

I don't know enough about Tibet. Certainly the Chinese don't seem to do themselves any favours. Clearly we won't believe anything that China says on the subject (though of course many of us bristle when Americans tell us "facts" about Northern Ireland) so for an unbiased alternative opinion another recommendation for reading is "God Is Not Great" by historian Chritopher Hitchens. He talks about the pretty nasty feudal society that Tibet was. Again this excuses nothing and I'm sure that exchanging one oppressive overlord for another is hardly ideal. But, there does seem to be a case to answer that whatever awful stuff Beijing has done, we shouldn't be too misty-eyed about what went on before.

And to be honest it really doesn't have a huge bearing on whether we should trade with them - as mcgazz has said, that's a Pandora's box which creates two problems. First, where do you draw the line and who decides? Mobile phone components from Congo? Oil from Saudi? OK, that's basically saying if you can't do something you shouldn't do anything, I get that - but this is odd place to draw your line in the sand.

Second, and back to the question, protectism (stopping trade) doesn't work and inflicts the most damage on those stopping the trade. It is very well known that this is what caused the Wall Street Crash in 1929 to spin into the Great Depression in the 1930's. There is a clear link between free trade and prosperity. The opposite also applies. And where's the place that is most self-reliant (at least, on paper)? North Korea.

[RUFFYONEVILLA]

Nevermind the disgraceful human rights record of the Chinese, what about animal cruelty?
This country cages dogs like we we cage chickens, ships them around to be killed for meat inside restaurants. They put cats into boiling water, pull them out and skin them ALIVE, then let them die an excruciating death.

Still not bothered?
Dont care about animals OR your fellow human beings?

How about the environment? We're all !!!!!!ed when that goes to pot and who do you think produces most of the carbon dioxide that is causing global warming?

Yes its the Chinese. And what is most of the fuel burnt for?
Yep, producing goods and shipping them half way round the world for westerners.

So come on the 36% where is your compassion?
I sorry thats gone with the credit crunch has it? Along with your ability to get out of bed and get to work I suppose.

The people of this county are a disgrace to our forebears.

If I was in government I'd have some balls, weaken trade with China and advise them it will weaken further until they start to show progress on all of the above issues.

[mcgazz]

Originally Posted by RUFFYONEVILLA

Nevermind the disgraceful human rights record of the Chinese, what about animal cruelty?
This country cages dogs like we we cage chickens

Does that mean that caging chickens is acceptable? Your views on what animals it is acceptable to eat are shaped by your cultural outlook and upbringing. An awful lot of Chinese people, btw, would be equally appalled by the way people in this country treat their elderly relatives, leaving them to live alone in poverty. One person's idea of right and wrong is not everyone's.

Originally Posted by RUFFYONEVILLA

who do you think produces most of the carbon dioxide that is causing global warming?

Yes its the Chinese.

China does not produce "most" of the world's CO2 emissions. It's only recently passed the USA as the single biggest producer (have you been boycotting the USA?), but India is not far behind and, per capita, Russia and Canada are pretty hefty producers too. Why single out China?

Originally Posted by RUFFYONEVILLA

The people of this county are a disgrace to our forebears.

Our forebears who fought two wars with the Chinese to ensure the trade in cheap opium continued, stole Hong Kong, forced Christianity on to parts of China, and subjugated the country in the late 19th century. I'm very glad we've moved on since then.

[poker_face]

Originally Posted by mcgazz

Trade between the UK and China is not one-way. We sell them financial services (insert your own joke here), environmental technology and luxury and sporting goods. They also reprocess a lot of our domestic refuse. Cutting all ties with China would destroy UK jobs, lead to more rubbish processing (or even landfill) here, as well as leading to much higher prices and much less choice in things like clothes/shoes, toys, and consumer electronics. It's one thing to make high-minded statements on an internet messageboard, another to suffer a hefty drop in one's living standards.

Also, what country has a perfect human rights record? Are you going to boycott pretty much all of Africa, Central America, the Middle East, South Asia, Russia, a fair bit of Eastern Europe, and the USA (torture, tasers and Guantanamo Bay, anyone)? And what about the Western corporations involved in these human rights abuses (eg Coca Cola's murder of trade unionists in South America)? Will you boycott them as well? What countries are legit, here? As an example, OTOH, even uber-right-on Scandinavia isn't perfect - Norway's whale hunting, Sweden's harsh treatment of teenage anti-capitalist protesters and former programme of sterilising women with learning difficulties, the marginalisation of the Saami (Laplanders) in both countries, and religious intolerance in Denmark.

You'd still be a hypocrite, anyway - Britain's human rights record isn't that hot, either. We've got people interned without trial, freedom of speech is restricted, we've got more CCTV per head of population than any other country in the world, MPs' confidentiality isn't respected, and it's not that long ago that we were doing similar things in Northern Ireland and several former colonies to what China are alleged to be doing in Tibet now. I'm no fan of the Bible, but I think "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" is a cracking line.

If you want China's human rights record to change, the best way is to engage them on the issue, not throw a strop, engage in some hypocritical and unsustainable boycott and spend your free time hunting down Romanian-made jeans and Turkish shoes, while your children complain that they're bored with Lego being their only toy (you will, of course, have junked your TV/DVD/PSP/hi-fi because they will almost certainly contain Chinese-made components, even if they were largely assembled elsewhere).

Exactly, I didn't see anyone proposing sanctions to the US when they were breaching human rights in Guantanamo.
Unfortunately it would take a power bigger than China to make them change their ways, and short of a uprising from their own people i don't think there is anyone more powerful than China.

[studioeng]

I think this is the wrong question to ask with these answers... What the question should be is: Which of these do you think Mr G Brown is going to do!?

[chardir]

Shouldn't we be strengthening trade in order to gain more political influence over China's human rights policies?

[Fireman sam]

This is a really interesting question, which, to me, speaks volumes about the one way mirror that we in the ‘civilized’ West view much of the rest of the world. We are taught much, through our schooling and our media, of the crimes of others but next to nothing of our own crimes.

If you take a simple look at some random examples of the crimes Britain and the US have carried out then it becomes clear that the human rights abuses of China pale into insignificance when compared to ours.

Take for instance the following examples:

Indonesia – Britain and the US gave training, funding, and military equipment to brutal dictator General Suharto who slaughtered an estimated 500,000 to a million human beings. Kissinger, on behalf of the US, gave him the green light for the killings.

Vietnam – at least 2 million Vietnamese (a quarter of those killed in the Holocaust) were slaughtered by the US. The chemical weapons they used are still causing horrendous birth defects today.

Cambodia – as a side show to the Vietnam War the US bombed Cambodia killing an estimated 500,000 human beings. This led to the rise of Pol Pot who stepped into the power vacuum and enacted a genocide of monstrous proportions. Britain and the US then went on to fund and train his movement the Khmer Rouge in exile. Why? Because Vietnam liberated the country.

Iraq– The first gulf war caused the deaths of 250,000 Iraqis. Our sanctions on the country then caused the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children. Round 2 ‘Operation Iraqi Freedom’ has so far caused the deaths of over a million Iraqi human beings and poisoned their country with radioactive depleted uranium which, like Vietnam, is causing monstrous birth defects. And don’t forget that it was the CIA that installed the ruling Ba’ath party from which Saddam emerged (described by the CIA man responsible as ‘my favourite coup’).

Africa - It is current British policy to export arms and military equipment to ten out of 14 of Africa’s most war-bloodied and impoverished countries.

I could go on and on and on. We are, simply stated, in no position whatsoever to moralise with other countries when it comes to human rights.

As it says in the Bible, “You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's eye."