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I've started to cup my other hand round the card machine and then do what you've said. When I paid in Boots the other day, the chap behind me tutted and said "Strewth love, its not like we're going to watch your pin or anything", to which I replied, "Well why are you watching my hands then?".
I started doing this after paying in an empty post office with my 3 year old sat on the counter, as I put my pin number in, she read the numbers out! Bless her....!
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Ever since I decided it was no longer worth the effort of getting chip & sign cards (it takes a lot of phone calls and letters, and then some places don't accept them easily) I've got into the habit of putting my wallet over the pin device while I enter the pin with three fingers over the entire row of keys.
I just wish the pads were all the same design. Sometimes it's difficult to know if the top row is function keys or numbers.
Ever since I decided it was no longer worth the effort of getting chip & sign cards (it takes a lot of phone calls and letters, and then some places don't accept them easily) I've got into the habit of putting my wallet over the pin device while I enter the pin with three fingers over the entire row of keys.
I just wish the pads were all the same design. Sometimes it's difficult to know if the top row is function keys or numbers.
The best bet is to go for the "5", as all chip and pin handsets (and incidentally almost all keypads) have some sort of bump on them, making it easier to find the other numbers.
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I cover the PIN pad with my wallet, am continually astonished by the number of people who enter their PIN in plain sight. Sometimes want to tell them - but how?
It's scary how blase people are about their own financial and personal security. It's great advice Martin and I'll feel less self conscious covering my hand (which I always do)!
The same thing happened to me. My youngest tried to spot my PIN, he got 2 out of the 4 numbers.
Ever since, I cover my hand with my wallet, it's out anyway so I may as well use it !
Not sure I've ever seen anyone else shield their PIN properly other than at cash machines. I've always done so and have even had 'Ooh, that's a good idea' comments from sales staff a couple of times.
Let's be realistic about this. How many cases can anyone quote where this has happened? Just because we can imagine it happening doesn't mean it's a real risk.
You say "One more common form of card crime is watching the pin number then mugging someone for the card once they know the number". How common exactly? Let's have some evidence.
Let's be realistic about this. How many cases can anyone quote where this has happened? Just because we can imagine it happening doesn't mean it's a real risk.
You say "One more common form of card crime is watching the pin number then mugging someone for the card once they know the number". How common exactly? Let's have some evidence.
Admittedly at a cashpoint but my mother (70) had her card stolen about 2 months ago. 2 individuals behind her, it appears, one watching the numbers she put in and the other watching her card. As she was waiting for her card to come out one of them tapped her on the shoulder and asked if she had dropped a £5 note - as she bent down to pick it up thinking it had come out of her pocket the other took her card. She noticed almost immediatley and managed to get into her bank within 15 minutes to stop the card. By this time they had already taken £200 from her account and would have taken more if she didn't have a daily limit oon cash withdrawals. Luckily the bank staff were excellent shame we couldn't say that about the very unhelpful PCSO at the local station who tried to tell her a crime hadn't been committed
LBM 13/02/08
Income dropped by £1400 per month from 01 Apr 08 - we seem to be coping thanks to here
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I hold my purse in my left hand over the top of my right hand which is pushing the buttons.
Started doing this only a few weeks ago when there was a post on the Credit Card forum about a poor lady who fell victim to people watching her enter pin number. They stole her bag, withdrew £500 cash and the bank wouldn't accept it was a crime, because she's responsible for inadvertently giving them the PIN.
Scary stuff.
And an easy way-out for Credit Card companies to stop them having to pay compensation. Unless of course you take out their 'fraud insurance'.
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This happened to my boss one lunch time. She paid by debit card in M&S and as she left the store her bag was snatched. By the time she got back to the office to call the bank (15 min walk) £500 had been taken from a cash machine and a £700 TV bought from Dixons.
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Let's be realistic about this. How many cases can anyone quote where this has happened? Just because we can imagine it happening doesn't mean it's a real risk.
You say "One more common form of card crime is watching the pin number then mugging someone for the card once they know the number". How common exactly? Let's have some evidence.
Rather than quoting stats. Sadly it happened quite recently to a friend of mine. That's one too many.
Martin Lewis, Money Saving Expert.
Please note, answers don't constitute financial advice, it is based on generalised journalistic research. Always ensure any decision is made with regards to your own individual circumstance.
Rather than quoting stats. Sadly it happened quite recently to a friend of mine. That's one too many.
If you say "it's one of the more common forms of card crime", two questions follow. Firstly, is that statement actually supported by evidence? Secondly, if it is one of the more common, is it common enough to be a problem? I trust what I read on MSE and I want to continue doing so. I don't like to feel that anecdotes are being presented as indicators of big problems if they aren't. Reading the points people have made in this dicussion thread you could make out that women are the only ones at risk
By far the most important point raised in this thread, for me, is that card companies won't refund your money if you inadvertantly let someone see your PIN, if it's true. This would be really useful to have confirmed and all other arguments would become moot.
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Why do you need evidence? All Martin is trying to do is highlight that this is a risk and give people a defence against it! Does itreally matter if it's HIGHLY risky? If you don't like the advice you don't have to take it. I can't imagine it should make your faith in the site falter...
I always cover my PIN and TBH have never noticed anyone giving me funny looks about doing so.
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Last edited by Morty_007; 06-01-2009 at 10:38 PM..
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I usually hold my wallet covering the keypad from the left, and put my fingers over the top 3 numbers. This sometimes means I push a wrong key, but although I've never done it on purpose, it does occur to me that the extra couple of keypresses to cancel the last number or clear the pin number to start again would make it a lot harder to monitor which numbers have been pressed correctly. I've thought about fluffing it on purpose so I'd routinely do 6 or 7 keypresses just to confuse a would-be thief.
Hmm, this raised another (I think valid) point in the case of card fraud: I wonder if the first person of the 3 Martin watched was 77 years old and the third was 54 years old? I used to work for a high street bank and it always amazed me that banks actually RECOMMENDED that you change the number to something meaningful to you - lots and lots of people use their date of birth or their partner's date of birth as a pin number (no matter how many times you told them you didn't need to know, and you couldn't look it up on the computer, customers would insist on telling the counter staff their pin if they came in asking a card question!)
In terms of level of risk I'm not sure that it's as huge a risk as the one that Martin has pointed out, but I can remember it happening once - a lady thought she'd lost her card, turned out it had been taken by a family member who had very easily worked out her pin! Probably a once in a blue moon situation, but it's the reason why my cards keep the random pin number they're allocated - I would never change it unless I thought it had been compromised, which incidentally is what your card provider would tell you to do straight away if you even remotely suspected the moneysavingexpert.com journalist had been standing behind you in a queue last night and may have witnessed your pin!
Let's be realistic about this. How many cases can anyone quote where this has happened? Just because we can imagine it happening doesn't mean it's a real risk.
You say "One more common form of card crime is watching the pin number then mugging someone for the card once they know the number". How common exactly? Let's have some evidence.
For goodness sake!
Martin is just highlighting a *potentially* serious and dangerous issue that is easily fixed. He's telling people to cover up their PIN when they enter it.
It doesn't matter if this is a MAJOR common problem or if it's just a potential problem, the fix is easy and straightforward.
Why are you being so antagonistic? After all the good MSE has done, I'm sick of seeing posts like yours where Martin gets jumped on and criticised for trying to HELP PEOPLE!!
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By far the most important point raised in this thread, for me, is that card companies won't refund your money if you inadvertantly let someone see your PIN, if it's true. This would be really useful to have confirmed and all other arguments would become moot.
A less angry reply to this one.. (lol)
It was posted only a few weeks ago on the MSE 'Credit Card' forum. If you think about it, the newest type of insurance CC companies are pushing is 'fraud insurance', which has always seemed to me to be a completely useless insurance because if you're genuinely a victim of fraud, the card company surely have an obligation not to force you to pay a bill that's not yours. So why have insurance against it? I can see them changing T&Cs to say, 'we won't refund fraudulent charges unless you have our insurance' sort-of thing.
Chip & Pin seems to give them a get-out clause, because you sign a contract saying you are responsible for ensuring you're the only person who knows the PIN.
If someone uses your card at an ATM to withdraw cash, they must know the PIN, therefore you must have either told them it or been careless when entering it, allowing them to see. So you are liable for any transactions they make using the PIN.
I am a bit cynical but don't think it's unrealistic that this might be the future. Makes me sick!
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Pls be nice to all MoneySavers. There's no such thing as a stupid question, and even if you disagree courtesy helps.
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